Transcript of “Joe Rogan Experience #1283 – Russell Brand”

Here’s another transcript. Started cleaning it up a little bit about half way through.  Great conversation between Joe Rogan and Russell Brand. 


boom and we’re live right so why is it then when people start getting like super spiritual they start dressing like you you dress like a guru we circulate a memo so it’s now time to stop wearing socks stop shaving and make eye contact for a bit too long it doesn’t cost a buck staring how long I’m gonna go with the beard I mean that’s that’s like your full-on like you’re a yogi now I mean it’s gone beyond Jesus and into Moses and lesser prophets worse or a Navy SEAL you’re in that range – he could be some wild man that’s that’s a mistake that wouldn’t hurt like if there was an assault course in front of us that the potential for movie in a Navy SEAL would start to break down at once went on a an assault course with some US Marines in that place near San Diego the name of that base and climbing up that rope using your leg muscles it was not good value and enjoy it I like the camaraderie and I really like I as I’ve written about and talked about quite a lot when I’m around very in very male environment I kind of really like it I really get off on it but I have to watch myself not getting too excitable it’s even in this environment as a matter of fact I have to keep myself a little bit chilled out why would even words adieu dear well I guess what is my early life I grew up mostly around my mum and I don’t have brothers and sisters and stuff like that so my male role modeling occurred later in life and I think probably relates to this spiritual thing I think it meant that I was very open to sort of spiritual experience meditative experience I didn’t have a lot of grounding physical experiences or bodily experiences really till adolescence until sick and sexuality that’s the first time I really got into the body didn’t do spore as a kid didn’t have like men going right this is what we do this is how we shave this is how you dream people this is you know I don’t really get that kind of education so now still if I’m around like soldiers UFC fighters I go you know you know I do BJJ merrily as a result of these conference where there’s not calm confrontation so like I there’s a bit of me that’s the guy I get excited about in of it it’s not homoerotic because that doesn’t happen to be the way that I roll out just enjoy a little too much there’s something about it and it may be what’s bad about it what’s what’s bad about getting fired up nothing for me except like you know look my as you know my model for life is a sort of a 12-step model about watching my impulses my impulses have got me in a lot of trouble my impulses to take drugs my impulses to sleep around my like my impulses to even eat food I’ve got a tendency to get obsessive but you know you would probably argue that if you direct that energy correctly it can be kind of positive I think it can but I agree with you that it can get out of control and I have similar impulses I have similar problems and I’ve just used discipline and hard work especially working out to try to mitigate it well that’s what I pick up from you is that your early encounters with martial arts of men you’ve understood from a young age it seems to me physical discipline and I think that’s a very important thing and I’m only learning that like now because I’ve had a like you know drugs then Fame there are none chaos and I’ve only just emerge from like this of the fog of that madness I love how you’ve emerged though because it’s very unique you you you’ve uniquely emerged authentically like you this is who you really are like you’re not putting on an act you found yourself which is like what everybody wants to do they want to find themselves I mean it never feels like a completed task right and everyone’s a work in progress forever that’s why but you are you like you are very comfortably you and you’ve found what makes you you that’s a lovely compliment to get from you Joe I appreciate that because what I think about is like you’re a very different type of person to me there’s things that in this world in these polemical times you and I would be supposed to I would say take adversarial stances on I’m vegan now you love hunting but my personal philosophy is my morality and my spirituality is for me it’s not something I’d go around inflicting on other people and telling them how they should behave either I know enough now to know people are different people have different experiences and I don’t let those things get in the way of how I evaluate other people we should all be more like that I really I really believe that I mean there’s so many people that I disagree with that I have fine conversations with I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that and I don’t think that impulse to have antagonistic engagements with people that you disagree with is correct how else are we going to consolidate yeah if like it’s just like I’m only gonna deal with people that see the world roughly how I do how will weaken and form new tribes new alliances new relationships new systems at a time when evidently it feels to me at least Joe died things are breaking down yeah there’s a lot bitterness acerbity and confrontation and people don’t want to talk to each other I mean I don’t know how real that is of actual people I’m talking I suppose about how the media landscape seems to present information I don’t know if that’s true when you’re you know when I’m around people I don’t sense oh wow these guys are really tied up in brexit or crumpled it doesn’t seem that relevant to ordinary people it seems to me that people are still operating on a in a personal how are you today you know people are willing to get on like that I mean how we supposed to take these ideas on board it’s almost too vast for us geopolitical ideas that we’re asked to identify with right and then your everyday life it hardly ever affects you or affects you very little in comparison to things that you ignore because you’re concentrating on brexit are you concentrating on Trump or you’re concentrating on whatever it is ya build that wall whatever it is yeah I start to wonder yo who is it that’s involved in this stuff I starts at what it’s where I’m at now is are we even capable of belonging to groups units tribes of 300 million people or 60 million people with so many diverse ideas is this a time to look at federalism differently to start breaking down well you know the eye exists within this tribe of people but I collaborate with all these other people I don’t know how municipal action gets done and there you run an army and build roads if people are starting to operate in smaller units but I am thinking that we need to have a real sense of community and connection and we got to let go of looking for ways to object to and judge other people was some sort before wire forming our own identity no I completely agree and I think we’re probably moving towards some sort of understanding that a lot of these boundaries and these clans of you know states and countries they were all established without our consent before we were born and we’re just we’re a part of a system that we just were we didn’t agree to it we just all of a sudden found ourselves in it and we’re trying to make it fit us yeah that’s right and there’s aspects of it that are appealing you know likes of during a World Cup I’ve really strongly all English and Ferrara you know like I feel with genuine census prevention and investment but if I’m being asked to live according a rules that don’t affect me that except for you know that perfectly financially and don’t speak to who I am as an individual within I’m like what is this this is my benefit yeah yeah when the the inclination to form teams and to root for your team and a route against other teams it’s it’s so deep seeded in us it’s and it can cause so many unnecessary conflicts for no reason it’s just it’s it’s so it’s so escapable too it’s it’s somewhat so if you can objectively analyze the way human beings behave and interact with each other and go well why do we do this let’s just stop doing that let’s just if we disagree on things how much are these disagreements actually affecting me on a daily basis not that much can we just communicate can’t someone say what they think and I say what I think and we just decide like what makes sense and what doesn’t make sense based on our own interpretations it seems like it’s that’s the direction we go ahead in I did as I know you have done a podcast with Candice Owens who like on the subject of you know individuals like when she says stuff like a people should get over slavery or it says if it didn’t have and I don’t agree with that I feel like that has a massive social impact that is that those statistics and not come incidents the number of people are certain ethnicities in prisons and in poverty or whatever for me that’s not just the coincidence but as I said I couldn’t agree with her more profoundly on according to social criteria from very very important issues on in personal level of which she was absolutely delightful that’s so funny and sweet and she’s very young if you really start with English at Lascaux she’s only 28 which is amazing right she’s so much smarter than I was when I was 28 she sent me a lot more confident no she’s prettier too plain 28 or 29 same thing so when I was 29 I was a fucking moron okay and no one would ever listen to my opinions on anything in on a world stage yeah people were listening to her I mean she’s she’s testifying in front of Congress I mean she’s so I cut her a lot of slack with some of the things that she’s made like missteps on and I think sometimes when people say those things like people should get over slavery it’s like it’s almost like you’re saying things that you think other people want to hear more than you’re saying things that are really rational so whether or not we should get over slavery sure slavery was over more than a hundred years ago but the repercussions of slavery the echoes of slavery still exist and they exist in all these different southern states and cities and all these different neighborhoods that had been a part of systemic racism where they had literally forced black people to live in certain areas and didn’t even allow them to buy homes outside of those areas they made laws and those laws are in place in places like Baltimore and you know I had this guy Michael Wood on who was a police officer in the city of Baltimore and one of the more profound things that he said was that they found papers that were documenting crimes from the 1970s in Baltimore and they were in this same area the same crimes that he was facing in the 2000s when he was a police officer so he was looking at this going what in the fuck like this is am I just a part of something that’s never gonna be fixed and never gonna be changed and you know as he learned more about the city in the city’s laws and how these these systems were set up to keep people in certain places and how the crime and the violence and the drugs is all just in this one concentrated area and it’s always been there and no one does anything to change it yeah you realize like wow this is a this is a crazy echo of a horrible past and that’s what it is I had a cop of conversations that made me recognize how powerful systems and institutions are and their ability to maintain themselves regardless of any individuals it seems like what happened there with the man you were chatting to is that he’s an individual woke up oh my god hold on a second in some sort of weird grid and like I suppose this fella called Kinross who worked for the British Diplomatic Service at the time of 9/11 and was privy to confidential information about how that was handled on a military and geopolitical level and he said like he’s come away from that thinking well these institutions function and in a totally corrupt way to pursue their own objectives this ingenuity and dishonesty is just part of the system and it was him that made me think about anarchism in a different way saying that people the assumption that people if you they were not tightly governed with big government and huge control would grammar jury in each other and raping each other simply not true that’s one of the means by which the state continues to justify its existence people will behave better the closer they are to self-governing communities self-governing community sitll and I was interested in that because he’s talking from this is what I saw on the inside this is how I saw it was running like your cop friend there and like another person I spoke to that had been inside a system and then woken up within it who was that Yanis varoufakis he was when Greece had that mad revolution he was like one of the leaders of a party sir it sir and for a minute it was like cerise I said we ain’t paying back all those debts you screwed us financially you’ve screwed Greece so he was there at the EU meeting telling like the German Chancellery we’re not part Greece ain’t gonna repay those debts and he just said that the way that the system reassured itself was magnificent to watch in a way and he said none of those individuals have any power except the power that that role gives them if you are the German Finance Minister you’ve got the power that German Finance Minister has you can’t step outside it and start going right this and why don’t we do this and why don’t we do that the system itself is beyond individual decisions you know it’s it’s a self-sustaining system it won’t come up with ideas or support ideas that threaten it and that’s why I continually keep hearing and I’m sure you’re having similar conversations that if you are really interested in changing the world you the participating systems there outside of it set up new ideas don’t worry about trying to smash this one down with a hammer it will atrophy on its own as you know it comes less and less relevant I think also change yourself and when you change yourself becomes evident to the people around you and if your change is beneficial and attractive people they gravitate towards that idea that you can improve yourself and you can you change the your perspective on things well that is the one area of your life where you’ve got some Authority in control and that’s yeah that is what I’m about is like that well I can’t stop myself being like a watching pornography I can stop myself using drugs if I want to like you know with some support and that’s what that this book it mentors which I talked about you in only four paragraph you know I mean it’s not too it’s not like of like literary fellatio it’s a small nod of your like of your influence in impact I talked about how we have latent latent qualities within us that are sometimes hard to realize on on without support but if you find a mentor in an area where you’re looking to improve they can kind of energize awaken energies within you that on your own you wouldn’t be able to use I had a really recent experience of it where I’m sort of like freaking out about something I spoke to like a mentor of mine and like the way the East or spoke to me was like sort of aggressive like I sort of an aggressive that’s not gonna happen you are not afraid and like it sort of it woke up the part of me then it feels that way that has that kind of I would say sort of male certainty a kind of grounded energy he was able to sort of like direct at me and like in that moment in myself all bewildered I wasn’t able to do it you know it needed to resource it externally in a moment so this is how I still feel like your individual journey I’m interested in how cuz I’m guessing with your background in martial arts and stuff mentorship seems pretty much stitched into that you must continually be looking at someone learning from someone trying to equal them or whatever it is yeah the good part about that is you get good at learning things you get good at listening No as a martial art student you you don’t just listen you listen very intently you bow you say sir you know I mean there’s there’s so much discipline involved in the the act of learning yeah and so much reverence and respect for people no more than you in appreciation so that that helped me with pretty much everything I ever wanted to learn I just would listen very intently and I don’t think maybe I could figure it out better I’m very good at listening to people that are good at things that’s interesting did you first get into like you know picked up stuff over the various shows that of yours that I’ve listened to but would you say that your inaugural interest in martial arts came from kind of domestic distress and stuff at a difficult home life and not a good relation with your stepdad am i right instead it was there but it was was also moved moving more than anything I mean all my stepdads a nice guy but it was stepdads it’s always a weird situation you know no one likes the dynamic of someone having sex with their mother I remember I don’t want to like navcore pain him in a bad way that’s just what was really hard was moving a lot and running into bullies that was way harder than anything else so there was a time in your life where you felt very presumably vulnerable yeah and not grounded didn’t have any friends 020 constantly moving in new neighborhoods meeting new people and you know and when you’re a young boy you’re a teenage boy teenage boys are fucking dangerous yeah the worse they’re the worst you see a group of them now I’m talking about my country for in 14 years old are across the street yeah lawless well young boys are just they’re always looking to impress each other and they have these if you want to find real toxic masculinity it exists in teenage boys yeah it’s mostly saturated in men the way it’s described it’s mostly exaggerated in terms of the way the media talks about it but it in its purest form and teenage boys they get together and they start lighting frogs on fire and doing shit they do things because they want to like one-up each other and they feed off of each other like what one boy would do is so different than what five boys would do what five boys would do who could be horrific but one boy would do on his own it’s very rarely there because what you know you have to think about yourself and think about is this right and you objectively analyze the way you’re behaving and like um yeah people wouldn’t be proud of me if I did it this way when you’re with five other boys and you’re you’re all rambunctious and filled with testosterone and piss and vinegar you wind up doing crazy things this is I you know we’re not here something like that is didn’t know to think that it’s of course relative relative to us the behavior of adolescent mouse is reckless and crazy it’s not impossible to conceive of an intelligent that would look at the behavior of adult human beings and think oh my god yeah what’s governing these people what principles are they using right like what’s the end goal to what are you trying to accomplish with your life with your existence with your time I think if there’s a real concern about AI I think the real concern is AI is gonna rationally analyze our behavior and our reliance on emotions and all these human reward systems that we have built in the way it’s affecting our society and the way it’s affecting how we govern ourselves and how we behave amongst ourselves and it’s gonna think we’re unfixable it’s gonna look at it like well this is this is a they have too much monkey in them they have so much monkey instincts and monkey DNA but now they live in this rational modern world of you know 5g internet on your phone and satellite communication and 24/7 news cycle but yet they have these primate genes official intelligence a subject about which I know very little it seems to me that you will on some level have to be derived from a particular aspect of human understanding and rationalism so we’re representing one aspect of our nature and prioritizing it logic organization but what you refer to is sort of primitive and monkey ish for me it envelops and involves the most beautiful aspects of our nature I’m a little romantic about human being still I still feel that I feel that one of the great problems we’ve is that philosophically we have overvalued materialism rationalism and like Univ knowing a little bit about philosophy primarily from that bloody podcast that you and I tagged a minute ago before we was recording last was this so like what why I understand for that is that post enlightenment we’ve started to prioritize rationalism so if you prioritize rationalism and organization which obviously has a lot to offer the organization of resources is incredibly and hugely important you forget that a huge part of the human experience is nothing to do with that the other thing we were champ out before we went live was DMT now no artificial intelligence is gonna understand that there is access to a realm of consciousness that continually exists that doesn’t seem to be bound by physical laws as we understand them and if the physical laws that we abide by are parochial and relevant only to this level of existence why are we allowing ideas resourced from there to govern all of our systems you know even listen to you talk about the empty nine count at these gestures I they’re jesters I went through this membrane into another realm and checking out Mike Tyson when he was on here yeah I took acid when I was a teenager and even in very unhealthy can I help about blood and bridled mad teenage boy conditions I you know I’m gonna be there with a guy in a lab coat with a pen going well mr. brand sit down look at these Rorschach tests stead of which I’m in New Cross in a bedsit dropping acid and staring at my own hands and recognizing oh my god I’m not me the very idea of me is a construct I’m just tuned into a particular aspect I I will build systems that are predicated on rationalism organization and I on that basis I can see why they would at some point here go all Skynet and annihilate us but that is a I believe the problem with our society is that the materialistic aspect of our nature is not the priority it’s just one thing we should be doing cause we need good roads cause many hospitals schools food etc but we need to find a way of honoring the sacred I’m fascinated in the experiences you’re having in these psychedelic explorations and how its influencing the rest of your life like how you’re saying like how you’re how does it influence the rest of your decisions the way you see the world the way you see relationships the way you see the vulnerable young man you were prior to building your own I say personal religion of martial arts excellence in your chosen field of stand-up comedy how do you incorporate that vulnerable kid because I’m still very aware of the vulnerable person I was and like I’m going on a rant man like when Kevin Hart was on here who I think he’s amazing and he was amazing on this I fought fucking hell like what have I got to offer in a world when Kevin Hart has got this kind of force oh yeah you don’t come in the bubble and I was like my god this guy’s so positive what a role model well he’s got to offer and then I thought well like any of us what I’ve got to offer is Who I am just Who I am and then vulnerable flawed human being the steel feels connected to the kid I was when I didn’t feel good enough I still feel that I can walk in a room and feel that you know I also know that that’s that’s not real because I’ve had spiritual experiences Hallucigenia experiences that make me feel that the relationships we should be building have to honor that we are both we’re vulnerable and flawed but also capable of greatness there has to be room for all of this and I feel that part of what we’re doing and part of why we’re experiencing such superficial polarity in politics and culture is because we’re not acknowledging that underneath this surface activity of left right left right and you know from Sam Harris them little experiments you stick garbage in front of a purse I’m on there they become Republican pretty quickly or you know you scare people they become less democratic you know I think all that stuff is pretty superficial and at depth in that realm of the jesters and the membrane of psychedelia we have access to oneness and that should be what’s influencing the way we set up our tribes our systems and our relationships yeah I think when a guy like Kevin Hart shows you what a positive and motivational impact one person can have just with his words and his deeds and the way he lives his life he’s so inspirational that you realize that that that is possible that you can share energy and that you can have these experiences with people where they literally do actually they actually uplift you like I like was uplifted by his conversation I felt like wow that guy is so positive what a great way to look at the life that we’re living and the more people do that the better and when someone like that does spread a positive message you know and obviously he’s got he’s materialistic as well he’s got a bunch of cars in a big house and he makes a lot of money and he does a lot of movies but what he’s spreading is this very motivational very positive message and that affects people in a very positive way too and all that left-right shit and all this all of the battles that we have politically and ideologically back and forth and all the negative venom that people spray at each other at the end of the day that this is not benefiting anyone unless you’re fighting some major demon that the world needs to conquer and most of that most of it’s not that most of it is like finding demons that have innocuous things you know and I think when you talk about what what you have to offer what you have to offer is that you are you that you have this unique perspective you you can affect the way people view their own journey in life because you’ve been so introspective and so aware of your own pros and cons in terms of your past behavior your current behavior and who you are now and who you used to be all that stuff is fuel for people because they can relate they hear it I mean maybe they cannot relate to being a movie star and being this famous guy and the strut but they can relate to the humanity of your struggle they put themselves in your position like what must that have been like and look at this guy who’s made these conscious decisions to not be like that anymore and he dresses like a homeless person with a crazy beard that’s the real take home information dress like you live out of doors yeah just like you’re a homeless guy in Oregon people respect that yeah it’s like dark colors you know rains Allah okay I get the reference I understand American culture token yeah so um hey can I do some for like ya t tell me what it’s called what is it this book is called mentors and actually I really like I read it bits of it again because I knew I was coming here and I think he’s actually pretty good like I wrote quite a lot about Brazilian Jujitsu really love it yeah do my writing is not from you’ll understand not from a technical perspective I’m not saying this is what I’ve got to say on open guard transition I’m talking about how the psychological impact that it’s had on me and also in there about like the protocols have going to a group which as a beginner are very relevant like you touched on how ritualized it is I got a hunch that they’re more we emulate and connect to original ways of human behavior whether that’s dietary or hierarchies or organization of groups I feel that we will feel the sense of greater connection now the thing I got from the gun in BJJ class is Genesis where I go in back in England it’s like that all the white belts get changed at one end of the room the purple belts and above get changed at the other end of the room which coincidentally or not is where the control for the timer is and the control for the music is and where the kit is that’s all up that rooms at end of the room so all the control is that end that it begins we’ve sort of dancing around in a circle doing all of those various exercises now lift your knees now do the shrimp in and that kind of stuff it’s the lower belt shouldn’t invite a higher Bell to spa or roll you know it’s at and like the as you say the amount of respect the bowing the handshaking and the end of it it’s so soft it provides such a safe environment in which to deal with the primal I can see why it’s valuable and it’s there like you know I should have been taught that shit when I was 14 13 like as Amanda Tara Lee so that I didn’t come across it like you know you’re not gonna be setting fire to fields and allotments and putting frogs on fireworks if you’ve got a way of dealing with that primal energy yeah when when it’s coming some people they don’t understand that think that you should suppress it somehow you should just ignore it or suppress it they don’t understand that one man they’re really a biological male at needs to be tackled head-on I mean you really really need to embrace what it is to be a physical male and it frees you in a lot of ways do you think this might be a comparable moment to in the 1960s when there was a sort of a sense of sexual repression versus sexual free laughs you know the images of Woodstock and flowers in their hair and smoking joints and having sort of sex outdoors in mud or possibly wheat but this time of like a kind of an anger about male nurse you know and maleness may not as you said it might be a biological male but it could be the energy of I don’t know assertion or wherever these like you know as in grammar your male and female relate to certain words as in French grammar where I don’t know cat is female and doggies now I don’t know the system I don’t speak French but I’m saying that these we have labeled these energies and it does seem that that there is a particular what I want to say a condemnation of male energy do you think you can come from a misunderstanding yeah and I also think it comes from a big generalization – yeah it’s easy to do right and if you’re a woman who’s had negative experiences with man maybe you’ve dated men that have been physically abusive or maybe you’ve known men that have been physically abusive and you’re around that and you just it’s it’s very convenient and very easy to just generalize and decide that all men are negative yeah masculine energy is negative and especially white males and if you say that you’ll get props online people go yes girl yes clap clap clap people get excited but those are also people that are short-sighted like you want to make as many people your ally as you can you want to make as many people your friend as you can and you have to understand that there’s some people that are just wired different than you there’s some there’s some girly girls and there’s some really feminine men and then there’s some masculine man and then in it but everybody is okay as long as they respect you and they’re kind to each other but the problem is we associate certain behaviors and characteristics with either negativity or hedonism or toxic masculinity or someone being a bitch as a man and that’s these generalizations are often way more harmful and just it’s just too convenient and easy and lays there is no simple way and when I think about my own attitudes in this area there is a degree of complexity because I’ve got young daughters I’ve got a two-year-old and a one-year-old right and there you know daughters so like but when the other day because I’m staying in Los Angeles Gaby she’s Mexican she’s two when I first moved out here and lived my entourage lifestyle she used to look after the house and she used to think oh my baby my baby she loved me so tonight like I’ll take her matriarchal figure wherever I can find one and Gaby used to look after me she adored me and stuff I stayed friends well yesterday she come around she bought like like what can only describe as a bikini for like my baby daughter like that what a two-year-old that doesn’t need like a bikini like top and I excuse me burping on the mic I like it for me I thought I don’t want to put my daughter in that that’s sort of in a way it’s sexualizing the like that child and like cover so and also a lot that like with my daughter I don’t like with my wife particularly our first child I don’t dress her up in little dresses and stuff because she won’t be out of run around and I thought my god I’m not that’s not that different from like the cliche of a male parent that one in a son and I didn’t want to sign or be known particular I’ve loved this kid I love this kid regarding you know it doesn’t mean I love for having the door adore her but like I am aware that these things have like dress a child this way dress a girl this way are constructs further to what we were talking about game before bat Michele Foucault we got a lot done before we went live man we moved to Michel Foucault what he exposes a lot is that there and a deluge guild Gilda lose is that a lot of things that we take for granted as being normal or actually constructs and when I say a child’s bikini there’s no reason for any child of any sex or gender to be wearing a bloody bikini so a child with tits is a terrifying idea for all but a very small and terrifying percentage of the population so like that is an example of the external feminization of a child like so when there’s an argument a feminist argument of you know Jen there is a construct I can see oh yeah it’s a point it is there is there are constructs like my opinion is you can’t argue with biology chromosomes are doing what they’re doing in the physical real but like you know like have been a father to a daughter has made me feel like I don’t obviously and then you have daughters or at least they thought through three daughters like I like I’m certainly very aware of I don’t want to push them down some culturally prescribed Avenue whether it’s men they dress their sexuality or anything so I’ve got you know where do I where am I on that dial you know yeah you got a just not put any pressure on them and let them enjoy their life and let them find their path that’s whether it’s what’s weird right it’s like I see people they’re you know they’re getting their their daughters to dress very very feminine with a little mini skirts and stuff when they’re five years old and high-heeled shoes I’ve seen little kids with high-heeled shoes his name’s very strange to me I don’t like it yeah what so you know but for me that is being sourced from like can’t we can extrapolate that to but then why should a 20 year old woman wear high heels I mean I’ve read cultural analysis I’m sure you have of law well the lipstick is to emphasize the lips because it’s an redolent of the vagina the high heels is to make a woman seem more vulnerable and to accentuate aspects of body shape now this can be you know seen as evidence of the influence of patriarchy know that there’s loads of areas where I feel like why are we looking for shit to argue about in this area we’re just human beings most of us and most important people in our life of the earth different gender or sex to us you know why we live for arguments but I can you can see the influence of cultural forces that are you know not neutral yeah you certainly can but I think it should be up to the choice of the person once they’re an adult the real problem is putting pressure on them to dress one way or another and not letting them find their place but if a woman becomes you know whatever age you decide and she wants to wear high heels and a skirt cuz she likes the way it looks like there’s nothing wrong with that either and our our the demonization of sexuality is also a problem you know yes it is almost as much of a problem as people who will pray upon vulnerable people the people people that think there’s something wrong with being sexually attractive or something wrong with being desirable or wanting to be desirable something with that either and that kind of suppression the suppression of these feelings that you have in this desire that you have it’s very unhealthy as well it’s a normal thing to want to be sexual it’s a normal thing to want to look good if a girl looks good in a skirt skirt and high heels and she likes to dress like that who the fuck is anyone to say there’s anything wrong with that there’s nothing wrong with it it’s if that’s what she likes that’s fine which is it what’s interesting to me is particularly in really progressive ideology they looked down upon women who wear short skirts and high heels and a lot of makeup and you know open tops that show their boobs because they think that it’s they’re playing into the patriarchy or that there’s somehow or another falling into these gender traps but yet they celebrate that in transgender people they celebrate that in trans men that transition to women and then they they they really doll it up then they’re like you go girl then they’re celebrating the fact that this person is embracing these traditional aspects of womanhood like well you see that a lot with you know people that are celebrating trans women so I’m very fascinated the aesthetics of the sort of what would be perhaps could be referred to as sexualized dress more like a I suppose in males expression expressive or garish clothing jewelry tattoos in I understand in British culture that these are often indicators of class that like that it’s typically the lower down the class structure you are the more likely you are to dress in a way that is exhibit if or like you know women from a blue-collar background dress in ways that are exposing and revealing men have leery cars and lots of tattoos and jewelry expressive ways of demonstrating wealth the higher you go up the class the more subtle more dress down you know labels all that slight stuff you know so in British culture there’s a different system of like a different system for referencing it I wonder how that works in American culture with it’s sort of like it’s evident and much disgust racial divisions like certain things it seems like a subtle way of condemning Killa types of womanhood that may not just be sourced from dressed this way for the male gaze it can also be a way of saying dressing that way is an indication of a lower-class background or of a particular type of ethnicity but there’s also the reality of males and females as there’s a lot of fucking jealous people and there’s a lot of women that just don’t have the type of physical body that looks good in a short skirt with high heels and you know a low-cut shirt and they don’t like when they see it in other women because they don’t they’re not comfortable with their own bodies there’s a reality of that I mean women get as much or more hate from women as they ever do for men and particularly if women find you to be too overtly sexual with the way you dress or behave that you’re you’re you know you’re damaging male-female relationships you’re damaging the dynamic particular office dynamics if there’s one girl in the office that likes to Tramp it up you know and she’s and all the guys are paying attention to her women will get mad at her I did an interview while ago where sort of talks about like parent in our kids me and my wife how we parent our kids and I said like you know guys I have to be honest my wife is much the more dominant parent she’s much more practical than I am right and like stuff that got that got like really negatively written about people said like like oh she changes more diapers than I do and stuff right but not like like don’t change diapers away but it’s just my wife you know regardless of our respective sexes is the more efficient dominant parent she’s much more likely with like with me if my dog goes I want that chocolate the answer to me all right you know like I can’t bear a see the the resistance the emotional explosion I concede much too early I tap out very quickly with my two-year-old my wife is much more know that’s played a long game that’s bring up a child that’s not government my impulses like you and I spoke in fact to that gap or Matt a that Expo and addiction he’s amazing and he says because of your own anxiety and pain from your own childhood we’ve no disrespect to my magnificent parents like you can’t handle seeing your kids suffer so you like straight away you bail and do what she wants and stuff now they of like so so much complexity in the reality of our personal little domestic relationship I’m certainly we’re not saying and everyone else should run their household in that manner as well and so help me God any man that changes it you know but the way it’s reported is like that’s what happens I think in modern media is they change what you say then you have to defend what they said you said and you know that ain’t what I meant I’d like you know I’m not saying that because my wife is a woman she should take more domestic you know I’m just saying that in our household she seems to have a set of attributes and characteristics that make her a take control of that aspect of parenting and it’s like the the desire to judge condemn an object is the priority as opposed that you know no one’s looking to go okay as well where you know well it’s also that they’re doing it publicly so they’re doing it most I mean if you’re you either reading comments or you’re reading articles and if you’re reading articles they’re just looking for something to be upset about they watch you and they’ll say okay is this a viable target yes we got confirmation what he said about changing diapers or his wife being a better parent is a viable target let’s go after them and then they just formulate some bullshit argument about who you really are based on what might have been a throwaway or a concession to your wife or even just a compliment to your wife soaking them in self-deprecating yeah but doesn’t people know they’re not looking at things rationally they’re just looking at targets particularly people that write articles you know what’s the best article it’s got to be negative like one of the things that came out of all this Facebook algorithm stuff is you find out that Facebook realized somewhere early on that the way to encourage engagement is to get people upset they they get way more engaged and they go back and forth and and inter interact with these posts way more if they’re upset than they do if they agree with it if they agree with it they might give it a like or a thumbs up and say hey that’s great and that’s it that’s where it ends but if you know someone’s talking about you know we shouldn’t build the wall we should let everyone in and you put that on some fucking Trump guy’s page and they it’s crazy I mean you will get thousands and thousands and thousands of interactions and so Facebook realized that the way to keep people and you know they could claim that it’s an algorithm and the algorithm just supports whatever the people are really interests but what they’re interested in this conflict that demonstrates my earlier point which I made up on the spot the AI is not a neutral thing it is resourced from human perspectives and because that is a type of AI from those knowledge complexes what we’re going to experience and I can’t even imagine but what I’m saying is is it still darkness a resourced from a human from a human perspective and yes of course we are evolved to respond more strongly to negativity than positivity for loads of reasons and I think that’s where we can stitch back to what we were saying about taking personal responsibility through you are like that none of us after sit on social media going fuck you fuck you are here none of us have to do that we can try and resolve though I respect that some people don’t have any other outlets they don’t have the privileges I have of being out go support groups where people openly talk about this is the ways that I felt inferior today this is the ways that I’m trying to become a better man and a better father and a better coworker you know like a lot of people aren’t afforded those environments and probably the best shot they got is having a go that was someone online and those people you know in a way deserve love and sympathy but until we on some level recognize that we can all our own behaviors we can all are our own consciousness all right I don’t see how there’s going to be well at least then we can create a terrain upon which a better better systems can start to flourish do you read comments no I actually like to sense if I can just about manage to listen to people’s replies to my conversation like you know like sort like yeah I don’t go on like I have like I work with someone who doesn’t my social media and like she gives me stuff like here I’ll respond to these things put some output on that because I don’t I don’t want to engage with that I don’t you know like walk up and down any Street knocking on the door go and do you like me do you like me don’t deal with people’s responses in various conditions well it’s also much like the articles but the way people get a response out of you or the way to people to get your reaction is to say something really negative you look at some sometimes when people are not that savvy when it comes to social media one things one of the things that you’ll notice is they’ll interact and I’ve been guilty of this in the past but for I sort of realized what I was doing you would only respond to negative things like people are arguing the people meanwhile people are saying nice things to you and you ignore them yeah it’s cuz you don’t you don’t you at a certain level you don’t have the physical time it doesn’t exist to respond to everyone it’s not possible there’s no if you get 13,000 comments on one of your posts how the fuck does anyone have time to respond to 13,000 people you can’t and then you have email and you have Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and just there’s no way it’s there’s not enough time in this world so you would potentially would have responded to things that cause them or they said if I saw someone saying something was untrue but fuck you that’s untrue but then I realize like what do you why yeah you’re doing like this is a new thing for people there’s never been a time where people have had this instantaneous interaction with people unfiltered unmoderated globally yeah and it’s very strange to be able to do that and to be able to go back and forth and just just to be able to give your comments on things to be able to talk about things it’s very addictive to people yeah that’s right and that’s why I’m very cautious with it I have this officer my life out like I’m essentially a monk in a marriage that’s basically I live get up meditate do yoga do exercises do things that are positive for you watch the way that you’re thinking I’m interested in where again in with your own do you feel connected to the person you were as an adolescent do you notice it in your own parent in do you notice it in the type of choices you make because the image I have a view from the outside is like that you have literally built something for yourself you operate within it and you are quite protected and you are independent and not forced to deal with too many negative outside influences but in unavoidable dynamics that unnecessary dynamics like you know as a father and dealing with colleagues and stuff like that do you experience a lot of tension anxiety what what what has happened to that guy do you feel that you have transcended that because I do in my own life feel like yeah I’m not the adolescent boy I was I’ve like you know I’ve learned from that and I still in a various of cod psychological way you know when I’m doing that’s the JJJ classes I’m doing over here we have known professor Ricardo will keep amazing guy like what when I’m when I’m doing those classes I have a cut a sense of fathering my child self of mine you know because I weren’t doing those kind of things when I was a kid I’m like it’s alright rascal we’re just in a BJJ class to impress anybody right if you don’t know just ask I’ve got a voice in myself because I checked a Tony Robbins you know he’s like never obviously high achieving guy who I respect a great deal and like you know when he talks he does like these cold plunges and he says before I get in that project you’re getting in that fucking punch my god I don’t talk to myself like right Russell we’re gonna get in the cold plunge we’re gonna really what are you doing with that aspect of yourself do you still have a relationship with it how is it like when you’re doing all these psychedelic cosmonaut ik explorations of the psyche are you not encountering aspects of yourself that are an undeveloped unaddressed there’s always going to be unaddressed and undeveloped aspects of yourself but I’m very very very different to who I was when I was a young boy I mean I’m I’m not a hundred percent self actualize I don’t think anybody is but I’m just a totally different human being I remember it but I remember it with humor like I remember I laugh I’m like wow so silly I was so weird back then and you know with life experience and developing confidence and understanding of who you are and why you had those feelings and why you were insecure and why he had so much self-doubt martial arts helped me with that with that tremendously because it was the first thing that I ever did where I didn’t feel like a loser so the first thing that I ever did were people like respected me and they liked me for it you know I’m like wow this is like some was a feeling that I was completely unused to in the 14 previous years of my life all of a sudden there was this this feeling that I was unusual I was unique I was special wow you know I was appreciated you were good at quick yeah I was I had a natural inclination towards it and I was obsessed with it so I was obsessed with it so straining every day all day long and then my instructor recognized it really early on so he allowed me to train there for free and just I would teach classes and teaching classes helped me a lot as well because when you’re teaching you’re breaking down techniques and your you you when you’re showing someone how to do it you’re really cementing those pathways in your own mind yeah yeah that’s right that must be an important step on the road to mastery I see that clip where Eddie Bravo gave you your black belt and you were very moved by that like so for me that like moments like that it must connect you to the beginning of the journey yeah that does yeah for sure and what’s still you know the journey of jiu-jitsu is a fascinating one because unless you’re someone who’s you know a saalu ribeiro or a John Jacques Machado or just a true master who has dedicated their entire life to it the journey so long it’s so long it’s like if you’re a guy who runs you like to run I like to run a mile three or four days a week no big deal but then you know your next-door neighbor’s an ultra marathon runner is preparing for them the Moab 240 where he’s gonna run 240 miles you’re just you’re never gonna catch up the same amount of times and you should always defer to that person when you have questions about running and that’s how it is with jiu-jitsu like is you know yeah I’m a black belt but I’m not a black belt like John Jacques Machado I was a black belt is there’s levels to even to that so I always have questions so the journey is never over it’s always long there’s always a better way to get out of an armbar or a better way to set up a triangle or whatever it is there’s the one of the beautiful things about Jiu Jitsu is that it’s so complex there’s so many variables there’s so many situations and interactions and exchanges and entries and defenses and and and wait a chain moves together and the correct way to set something up to three steps ahead to know that if you grab the repel this way the guy’s gonna try to shake it off that way and that exposes this which exposes that and then the next defense will expose this and then you keep going and going and going and going until you get them it’s so beautiful to watch that because it’s like as if there’s a pre-existing net or grid of interrelated signs that will work together and like as a white belt I’ve got three stripes now I was Thanks I was really hoping that by the time I came back on here I would have a blue belt and I could be closing I’m trained I’m training three times a week private and I’m attending two classes and what I’ve done this is good thanks a lot and was a significant step for me is like now in the classes when I’m spire of people I don’t try just in the handshake to manipulate them into going easy Ralph we go then please try to manipulate people yeah like just a subtle gesture or something you avoid big people yeah sometimes like I try and stay down that white belt into the room but like now the more I do it like the more they coax me up there great big giant men like her like there’s a guy a goat like the swans a parrot like the hard end of purple bone above they’ve Paul Busby and like there’s people like their hands and their feet look different to my hands and feet as different than their hands and feet are different from mine is mine are to my daughters how am I supposed to do anything with these people like hard water like drowning in hard water the way they move unfold around me what I supposed to do my breathing goes but but the thing is with other white belts is that what I feel is like there is my ego comes back in because there’s I know I should begin something the first time I got choked out by another white belt I felt like I went into a room I’d not been in since I was 16 getting my kicked in in bus stops you know and stuff but I felt like I was quiet for 24 hours just sitting and reflecting on oh shit this is a combat sport this happens you’re gonna experience what I write so it doesn’t mean I’m a bad person you get used to defeat but it’s it’s that humbling is very good for you you know I mean I don’t know how many times I’ve been tapped out in my life but it’s probably more than a thousand thousands you know and that yeah and there you sit there while I’ll tell you about jiu-jitsu and the other and the other thing that’s been good about it is like when it is the other way like I remember like a guy that was a big guy on top of me and like I was he he was in mount right I’m not like he weren’t actually applying a submission but there’s just the sheer discomfort of having someone there their body their sweat their hair their abdomen their reproductive organs their digestive system feces in their bowel but then he went to move to get on by default hang on a second there is a moment and I managed to escape from that and like the amount of energy that I release fine feeling it’s also very satisfying to defend against something that someone used to catch you with like say if someone’s are really good at taking your back you know choked you a couple times and then one time they take your back but you defend and you get out you like are cut out yeah there’s an escape I can make this I’m getting better I love being in the cave that mint will spice because what my technique was oh I’m not good at that never bother trying I’m not good at that kind of stuff never bother trying so for me at this stage in my life to go and do something that I’m not good at this with other men that’s competitive that involves so much vulnerability and failure and learning I’m thinking well you’ve you’re growing you’ve got be growing so you’re doing stuff that you never would have done before even turning up at a new place like I’m doing here in LA and making those new relationships and doing that you know it’s amazing for me another thing I are into is the integrity of it right but was Chris clear a black belt under Hodder Gracie right and you came a teacher like if he gave me a blue belt that would look good man he would be video dude I was Russell Brand got blue polish shit muscle but no he doesn’t do it out of integrity and respect for that you know it means more to him yeah evidently then assume the act of kindness you know so like what is nice to belong to something that has protected and valuable systems he did say to me you keep going by the end of the year Bluebell I think but like you know it’s not dished out like there is nice to know that there’s some kind of order an area where celebrity manipulation charm humor none of those things all redundant or redundant no in jujitsu it’s very protected anyone that gives out a bad belt it’s very bad for their integrity it’s the the the school would lose face so badly in the community and you meet someone who’s a Hicks and Gracie brown belt that motherfuckers a Hicks and Gracie brown belt he’s as legit as they get they don’t get any more legit like if you got to that point of Hicks and Gracie gives you a brown belt it’s just it’s irrefutable and that’s how it should be and this a beautiful thing about the art form is that it has this self-correcting sort of aspect to it that when you roll when you spar with each other it your ability or lack of is exposed and there’s no other way around it yeah that’s good to not avoid that yeah but you’ll be better you know you’re you’re a fit guy you’re a healthy guy if you just keep going and get off that fucking vegan diet and keep going I watch the documentary called what the hell have you seen it’s like yeah it’s filled with a lot of propaganda propaganda damn those guys again like the Nazis I remember it’s they used a lot of discredited studies and there’s a lot of epidemiology studies that’ll connect things that what does that mean like an epidemic always know we could pull up what the actual pulled something out of analogy but the way I would describe it is they would do these studies and essentially it would be they would they would ask you what you eat on a daily basis how often DEET mean how and it’s basically a survey and in in that survey they would say well there’s a direct correlation between people that eat meat and diabetes so let’s pull up the definition but the problem is what is causing here a branch of Medicine which deals with incidence distribution and possible control of diseases and other factors relating to health so when they’re when they’re dealing with incidents right they’re dealing with how often do you eat red meat how often do you eat this how often you eat that and then they find oh well there’s more instances of diabetes and people that eat meat okay but is it people that eat meat and vegetables or is it people that eat meat and vegetables and diet coke and and sugary sodas and ice cream and french fries and how are they eating their meat are they eating cheeseburgers for some bullshit fast-food place or they eating grass fed steak are they eating grass fed steak and vegetables and there’s very little evidence that shows there’s anything wrong with eating meat if you follow a normal healthy what they would call a primal diet yeah cut out all the grains cut on all the sugar cut out all the bullshit eat vegetables and meat and there’s almost nothing I mean unless you have some very unusual rare condition where you’re either allergic to meat or you have some very strange digestive system where you fight you have allergies to it or you have real problems digesting in or you have real problems with high cholesterol foods which is very rare as well most of what you’re getting is vegan prop again the people that want other people to be convinced that the way that they’re living is the correct way and that eating meat is physically bad for you and it’s causing all these harms what’s causing all the harm for people physically is the modern American diet and that’s been pretty established yes that’s right and there are clear ethical reasons to be vegan in that it takes you out of the exploitation of animals but at the community what health I watched was like you know not be vegetarian for years and this light and I’ve gone back and forth to veganism because I feel good Jesus Christ man there’s enough things in my life I’m not doing without not being out I have an egg without feeling good your house two raised eggs if you get them from a good farm the chickens are just hanging out a lot of chickens in my garden are not confident in these animals and the one by one slowly my dogs eliminate in those nine of them two coyotes just last month maybe two months ago I said pretty heavy was a heavy toll yeah well we had a fire out here and the chicken coop burnt down we got a smaller chicken coop and the Coyotes figured out how to get into a woman wearing home and who came home to just feathers everywhere I was disgusting they’re brutal little monsters coyotes yeah yeah you know uncomfortable they’re the reason why we don’t have rats everywhere – all right so yeah that’s the circle of life lion king was right so like hey though the thing that about that vegan documentary mate is that it it tuned into my pre-existing belief when it’s stuff like oh the Diabetes Association’s they are funded by these meat and dairy organizations and these pharmaceutical companies the cancer organization similarly accepts donations from these organizations and it made me wreck existing an idea that I come to it with is you know like that whole pyramid of these are the things you should eat bread milk just were the figs that it was easy and cheap to produce and that were profitable they used to think that they really did used to think that bread wooden and grains were the most important do you think they felt that I think they did I think they thought it was it was filling and it provided energy and

J: I don’t think they understood well. There’s no talk of gluten intolerance when we were young—that didn’t exist. There was no understanding of excess carbs, and excess carbs leads to excess body weight, and it makes makes you store fat. People didn’t think about it that way. The thing about nutrition science is a it’s a body of knowledge that’s constantly added to.

[?]R: Yeah, in fact perhaps most things are who knows what misapprehensions and ignorant sweet toil on the earth that will be revealed to us do you do any I feel like I’ve heard you talk about hormone stuff yeah yeah

[?]J: I do hormone replacement what type of things testosterone in human growth hormone you have to give yourself a jab in there yeah you get in the thigh thigh you won’t do the arse Apple pride mrs. Rogan its eyes right there it’s easy to grab yeah but they also have taking hold like so

R: You’re taking growth hormones? Have you noticed any negative side-effects?

[?]J: Your blood is monitored. When you’re doing something like that this isn’t this is also if you’re a person that has addictive problems addiction problems which I don’t necessarily have them as much with substances what do I let them leave well you saw with video games when you got here the video game problem that I have

[?]R: yeah you frantic you merge that at darkroom you and your sweaty sweaty and pie-eyed and baffled by the one –

J: I’ve been addicted to martial arts. I’ve been addicted to playing pool. I get addicted to getting good at things. I get very addicted to things if there’s something that I get obsessed with like jiu-jitsu or whatever it is… and that’s all I think about all day long. It’s not healthy. With hormones you want to make sure that you don’t overdose yourself. Make sure that you stay within a narrow range where you have healthy levels of a person that’s in their late 20s. You want you don’t want to have hyper-human levels. Some people do.

[?]R: hyper human you’re gonna create an audio system

J: You’re fucking up your body man. You’re just jolting yourself with all this extra shit.

[?]R: sweet lady thyroid is that part of your system

[?]J: I take thyroid. It’s actually made from pig thyroid. (do you mean pigs fire roads now yeah hold on wait how what’s happened to the pig?) they’re long gone they’re not so straddling over lack of thyroid teetering about all emasculated well this is like so

[?]R: yeah I’m interested in this hormone stuff I’m interested in that but you know me I’ve got to be very very cautious about Moodle or in yeah stuff yeah

[?]J: If you have the exercise regimen that you’re talking about I don’t think you have got to do what it takes man

[?]R: yeah bring me the pill shock that thyroid out of it directly

J: You should eat eggs though man. You should eat should eat some animal protein. If you oppose the moral aspect of killing an animal… I totally understand and appreciate. That’s what led me to become a hunter in the first place. I was really uncomfortable watching these animal rights videos of factory farming. I thought it was disgusting. I was like, “I don’t want to participate in this”. It’s reprehensible. Hunting is a different thing, man. To me, hunting is intense; it’s very spiritual in a way. I mean, people don’t get it because they see you celebrating when it’s over. It’s very difficult to close in on a wild animal.

R: What are you hunting?

J: Mostly elk. Well, Elk’s my favorite for two reasons: one, it’s very delicious and super nutritious. Also if I shoot one elk, I can eat it for eight months by freezing them.

R: So you’re out stalking an elk on the plains? Where are you, like near where you live?

[?]J: You do travel on bikes if you whitetail hunt. You go into the woods with bikes because they don’t leave a scent the way your feet do. (mm-hmm) Animals don’t associate the sound of a bike the way they associate the sound of stepping bipedal hominids. (having to evolve trail bipedal yeah?) They see you on a bike, they’re freaked out as much delightful never seen my brain what are these things? yeah

R: Elk, are they like herd animals?

J: Yeah, I see a herd of them, and try to figure out which way the winds blowing. You try to get close to them. Is this a video of us? Yeah, this is a beautiful place.

[?]R: I can see the heart of nature now the fingers of me I see that elk there and I sort of feel like a sort of I’ve watched too much disney um you know like I see that elk and I feel like I’m Bambi literally you know like I don’t have E it later Lee in the morning you look yeah tired not tired

[?]J: mine only afternoon actually till those late afternoon

R: I would love the game. I’ve had to go down gun ranges, it turns out I’m a pretty good shot. It’s nice to see that thing come back, we’ve like holes around this abdomen. It’s I think satisfying. There you’ve dealt with a paper man. But like… the elk? I couldn’t. I’ve got too much empathy in me. I couldn’t deal with the feeling of after it was shot. I’m almost thinking about the sentimentality of it. I’ve sentimentalized it. now you know at least I had don’t eat meat and stuff like that so it’s not like I have all those feelings. But I can handle it in a packaged portioned off way. yeah it’s just I feel too much like oh that creature. So what’s in your head when you’re doing it? When you’re pulling the trigger, what’s going on in your mind?

J: You are only hunting mature animals that have already passed on their genes. You also are recognizing that if you’re not killing these things, it’s not like they’re gonna live forever. They live a short. A short life, with a very violent death. It’s either wolves, mountain lions, bears, or something’s gonna take them out. What you’re doing is essentially dipping your toe into the natural world. I’ve heard the argument, “Well, this is ridiculous. Not everyone can do that. If everyone went out and hunted all the animals, there would be no animals left.” Which is true, but I’m not everyone. I’m still going to use the “if everyone did” argument because it’s a good argument. If you’re encouraging people to hunt, it is kind of a good argument because it’s not realistic. It’s not sustainable. The other thing to recognize is the reason why most of this wildlife exists in the first place. A lot of it was wiped out in the early 20th century from what they call market hunting. in the late late 19th century early 20th century they you know they didn’t have refrigeration and it was hard to get food and we didn’t have the same sort of large-scale agriculture that we have today. and so when someone would want meat they would someone he would either have to hunt it for you and you would go to the market and and get that hunted food or you would go out and do it yourself. and they basically wiped out most of the wildlife in North America to the point of extinction whitetail deer elk they’ve been extirpated from the majority of their range in North America and only been replaced in a few other places. but the places with there been replaced it’s all through money that was generated through hunting tags. all through billions and billions of dollars. there’s a thing called the Robertson pikmin I think that’s what’s called act where 10% if you buy hunting gear and equipment 10% of that money goes to habitat restoration, making sure that rangers and forest people get funded, so that the Fish and Game Department gets funded, and all and also population conservation. making sure that the populations are healthy, repopulating certain areas with elk and deer. and this has all been done through the money that’s generated through hunting.

R: yeah I can see that there isn’t looking at my own feelings too I can see that there’s a potentially I’m bringing a sentimentality to the idea of animals that’s like anthropomorphic. yes oh you can’t kill that it what about its babies you know it like I’m thinking about things like that. but what I you know I live in a rural area in Britain where like hunting is normal, and I wouldn’t and agriculture is normal and I wouldn’t get very far if I was sort of oh you can’t chew those pheasants look at their feathers they’re beautiful! you know I mean like you wouldn’t it’s not a help for watching so whilst I like record like in myself I couldn’t do that because like I don’t it messes me up on a sort of a feels like a very deep visceral level you know like but I feel that this is precisely the kind of territory where we have to look at acknowledging and tolerate indifference between us. this is where I feel like the sort of these ossified polarized positions between right and left are starting to take root. because if someone like me who don’t eat meat don’t eat animal products and wouldn’t hunt for ethical reasons, starts trying to impose on other people now you shouldn’t have because of this that have you not watched Bambi you know like that’s gonna mean that people aren’t able to explore who they are. it’s that and so my I’ve let go of judging people around things that I don’t agree with because I reckon I don’t know everything. you know I mean I’m this this is like this is about my morality is about how I behave. and if people said to me I’m thinking about going hunting I go well these are my feelings about it however though I just heard that hunting does contribute apparently the survival to some species and there is an argument that it’s quite natural in indigenous and it’s probably a way of getting in contact with who we are originally as hunting people is an important part of our anthropological history and possibly a lot of the condemnation of hunting is part of the rejection of who we used to be is we become overly civilized and more and more than detatched from what it is to be human whether that sacred or pragmatic we don’t know what human beings are anymore we reject our own sexuality we reject their own bodies, we reject you know we’re trying to turn ourselves in these sort of cyborgs. these emotionless sexless meaningless creatures where is our passion where is our connection the sacred? they would go hold on only after about hunting. when are you gonna stop talking? never! gave me I will pummel you with my belief system on other things yeah like so I don’t feel like that ain’t we’re getting the judging people um but like I’m interested as well with this I keep bringing up the subject of DMT like what I guess what I want to know about is like because I’m you know obviously a person in recovery I don’t drink I don’t take drugs haven’t done for a long time and I recognized for certain people that they can’t do it safely. psychedelics and hallucinogens it seemed to me exist in a realm outside of that because they’re not about they’re not pleasure-seeking there’s like seems to me like it’s a spiritual pool however I’m a crafty bastard when it comes to this stuff and I’m always looking for an in. you know when I see your cannabis treasure-trove over there I mean that is some yeah as you said the let Raiders of the Lost Ark stuff and I’m holding in my hand now the CBD rich cannabis soft gels clasp in it. you know so I’m worried that

J: that is a gateway that CBD which is not necessarily psycho psycho back it’s not but it does help you with anxiety it helps a lot of people because alleviates a lot of inflammation which tends to have a corresponding impact on on your anxiety

R: okay so this says here 11 milligrams of THC does that mean I mean it says THC you just say that the bottom the probably wonder one this is the wonder one might be already 18 to 1 or 11 it says there’s an 11 is

Jamie: a couple different ones in that box

I give you almost like a smack don’t take that this one goes this one this one’s way more powerful everyone

R: you seem do you seem very relaxed and free from anxiety great I will say that but like what I suppose I’m interested in because I listen I’m meditating the whole like I meditate a lot I’m doing all these things I’m experiencing transcendent States. I’m experiencing what it’s like to not feel attached to my identity as Russell who are you before you are Russel?l who are you before you identify yourself as a man in England? who are you who is the person? who is the consciousness who is the awareness then when I listen to say Terence Mckenna talking about his experiences in psychic such length and with such lucidity and with so many philosophical connotations. and the way that he uses the information he’s getting from Hallucigenia experiences to speculate on how we should organize society. what what the implications are for freedom. his refusal to accept that there are certain kind of experiences that should be prohibited that it’s ridiculous that adults should be prevented from having that. I I’m fascinated by I’m also I suppose part of my biases. I love anything that gets me out of my head I feel a tremendous sense of relief whether it’s through meditation or even sport the or sex being relieved of the burden of the constantly thinking mind. but when I hear like those vivid descriptions of DMT realm or wesker I think something in me hungers for that hungers for it

J: do you worry that you’re trying to get intoxicated you worry that you’re but you’re trying to find a loophole

R: yeah because I am doing that I’m I’m looking for a loophole I go around trash lawyer looking for some way

J: yeah I mean I know people that have problems with addiction that I’ve done psychedelics and didn’t have a problem. but I’m sure some people have had problems and I don’t know about them DMT is interesting in that first of all it’s very quick. the experience is only about 15 minutes 20 minutes max. and it’s also it’s not necessary it’s not an intoxicant in the way that you would think about traditionally. you are still you in in the face of this experience. and I think I think it’s some sort of a chemical gateway. and that’s what I think I think there’s a gateway in your mind that can lead to some other dimension that’s probably there all the time

R: if there is a omnipresent continually existign realm that human beings aren’t accessing because of that particular biochemical formulation of consciousness as it is in this point in our evolution yeah and that we can get there and it seems as like you know I’ve heard Terence Mckenna say it’s more real you know it’s more real there’s stuff in there you know and excuse me and when he talks about them beings you know like that he describes herself dribbling basketballs creating Faberge egg Lion of iDevice his fruit vibration

J: I didn’t see it I never saw one he’s called the Machine Elms he’s called them all sorts of different things the way I’ve described them is they’re the geometric patterns made out of love and understanding. they seem like so you’ve read you can look at a geometrical pattern and read meaning into it? had an emotional quality

R: they’re made out of somethig? and they move they change like they don’t stay what they are they’re constantly evolving in front of you into something more and more beautiful it’s very weird

R: what did it make you feel

J: like I knew nothing there was the most profound aspect like all of this stuff that you concentrate on every day is nonsense and there is some other thing that’s connected that’s probably influencing this world yeah and it’s probably what with people see when they have near-death experiences the depictions of the afterlife I mean that’s probably what it all is and religious experience is when prophets are talked about

R: oh my god I went into this realm there’s these beings I’ve told me we’re all one we have

J: scholars scholars in Jerusalem are connecting Moses’s experience with the burning bush to the acacia tree the acacia tree which is rich in DMT the burning bush is what God was to Moses and that through this burning bush he came out with these 10 commandments of how people should live their lives. I mean that easily could have been just a very convoluted sort of translation of a DMT trip

R: certainly and also when you think of certainly there are archetypal images that seem to be repeated through our ancient cultures on an archaic stories that seem to refer to the potential for plant experiences to affect consciousness even the Garden of Eden do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge otherwise you will become as gods. you know alike I sense that now if if there is some realm that we can reach through that experience, but see that puts into perspective everything that else we experience on the material realm, and that thing seems to in your words be emanate in love and understanding while ever-changing completely formless and communicate in love and understanding. for I can’t help but think that that should become our priority to have a relationship with that girl and to bring about that experience. I don’t even mean in a literal way because even Terence Mckenna said there are some people venerable rubble souls

J: he was probably referring to people like me that probably shouldn’t mess around with that kind of stuff really talking about people with schizophrenia rather which he believed he had by the way today yeah he he had some very unique perspectives on schizophrenia the the way people interact with the world itself. I think if we lived in a healthy world a healthy civilization that had a healthy relationship with psychoactive substances we’d probably have centres where you would have a legitimate shaman a medical adviser and someone would take you through a guided experience. we’re doing that now with Ketamine there’s a lot of people that are very depressed that are having these physician controlled ketamine experiences that have had a profound effect on their depression my friend Neil Brendan’s gone through several of them. and he was he’s a comedian a very funny comedian so when he was describing it was hilarious I’m going to a doctor’s office and tripping his fucking balls off. you know and the doctors shooting him up with intramuscular ketamine. oh my god yeah and he’s having these insane yeah I go see you’re having psychedelic experiences like oh ya mean tripping his fucking balls off in these whatever states that ketamine I’ve never experienced ketamine I don’t know what it does but it’s apparently profoundly hallucinogenic. and you have wild crazy experiences on it. and for whatever reason it has a great impact on depression for a lot of people. I think it’s a perspective enhancer but it also does something to rewire the mind

R: well what some of this suggests is that mental illness is a response to our material conditions whether that mental illness is schizophrenia depression or addiction is like like people have gone wrong hang on a minute listen how we’re supposed to live. I took that came in one time towards the end of my using and it as usual it’s not in the right type of environment. we doing stuff and a nightclub you need to be under that shamanic conditions why or whatever whoever you know nominate is a shaman. but I felt like it was like going into a tunnel made of sound and I having to navigate it I’m still in reality we’re gonna do it as myself consciousness becomes a noise yeah instead of a string of words and signs you know I’m gonna get out of this place. you know so like for me it’s clear that drugs were never meant to be recreational in fact they never worked I was never hey man this is crazy I was like I’m fucking pain I need some shit to help me out otherwise I’m gonna probably kill myself. yeah you know so like it was a way of holding that stuff at arm’s length. so I guess my renewed curiosity around DMT and ayahuasca and other sort of plant medicines and like you know that do you know Daniel Pinchbeck and like them guys that are sort of part of that I’m curious about it because I guess I’m continually trying to find a way with someone go right here’s a way where we can do it where it’s sort of safe and I’ve heard of other people in recovery doing it. and when I think about what my motivation is is when I hear people talking about and my own and my own recollections of experiencing what felt like god and by God I mean a sense of oneness and that my individual identity isn’t my real identity and I’m connected to everything and love is the most important thing you know III want a real experience of that so that. when I’m out in the world I can remember when I’m driving or when I’m dealing with people or if I’m buying something or if I’m feeling inferior or feeling superior that like you said this is bullshit! this is like a secondary reality don’t let it govern you! you know as someone that’s been seduced by fame a person life if I get this pons film then everyone’s gonna love me oh if this stand-up set goes well you know like a person’s placed all of my well-being outside of myself. the certain knowledge that there is an inner connection that will take care of you that’s accessible I guess I’m you know hungry to sort of feel it in a way that’s like oh my god now there is no doubt so in a sense is a crisis of faith no twice in

J: psychedelic states that you could achieve without taking anything I mean you can certainly get there in a floatation tank you could get there through holotropic breathing I’ve never done kundalini yoga but apparently the people that get really deep into Kundalini oh you can literally have DMT trips yeah I have friends that have done DMT and have experienced DMT trips through Kundalini but you have to be really dedicated I mean there’s a lot of time a lot of time a lot of energy and you have to really understand the methods and and follow them to a tee and you can achieve these altered states of consciousness that are apparently you know not for my personal experience but from people telling me incredibly profound

R: yeah I mean I’ve had comparable things I guess but what it’s you know the difference between feeling something that’s that overwhelming that gives you no choice you know like this like it’s not like in a Kundalini you got do these breaths correctly you got to sit there you go try again have you done it yeah done quite a bit really knee well what for me feel like what I felt quite a lot yogic Lee and meditatively is a cessation of what I would call my individual consciousness. like oh I’m not this this isn’t Who I am this is just a temporary experience and all of the value systems of our world are built upon these primal drives in collaboration with a culture the like the stratified people and manage people and operates like a massive farm where it’s easier to keep people together operating in these kind of way systemically. I’ve sort of felt rushes of that like a certain wordless clarity if you can imagine me having anything that was wordless even for a moment and like and in that space you know there was there is great peace. so I suppose get that what’s turning me on about the like the DMT and ayahuasca thing is that the way it’s narrative iced that there you’re gonna meet characters and stuff like that and it’s and it’s gonna be plain and beyond doubt you know because I suppose what prophets do you know like whether it you know when a prophet returns from there whether it’s the burning bush or the cave they come back and they say all this stuff that you’re taking seriously is not real. there’s this other realm start prioritizing it or you are gonna live in Hell on earth. you’re gonna be governed by your materialistic drives your sexual drive and it’s going to imprison you. and it turns out that they’re right! and so like you know I suppose what I’m after because I’m partly you know on a superfood like I’m one level influenced by what you’re doing and how you’ve created your own like your create your own business and your own success like this this symbiosis of stand-up and the podcast and like it’s become like a sort of a lifestyle brand in a sense Joe like you know I’m sort of like yeah I don’t I don’t want to be continually dragged in and he’s collected like working within institution. it’s like you know I I’m over here doing a bloody I’m doing bullets and I’m bloody glad to be over here doing ballers and working with the rock and I’ve got a funny story about that if you want it but like you know like really what interests me is like can I be and that can I dedicate my life to humorously communicating spiritual information and indeed starting to live it so later and I suppose what that would mean is you know I’m getting better but I’m not a person who’s obsessed with porn or sex or drugs or like you know to become it to become what you actually are to recognize that we’re all different. your perfect realization of you is going to involve Huynh in and all of these things that you’ve created through your gift and that my perfect version of me is gonna you know involve all of this and not everyone needs to build sort of empires or entertainment histories or whatever but all of us are on some journey to self-actualization and realization as individual as our fingerprints and as natural as a seed turning into a tree and if we don’t have a way of accessing that no wonder with this ice right no wonder we tie there’s an opioid epidemic no wonder people are bored and angry and lonely

J: well I think what you can do is be yourself and what you can do is express yourself and what you can do is constantly seek to improve and grow and you are doing those things so if you’re saying can I do these things? can I be comedic and spiritual? and what you’re doing it right so it’s don’t you’re doing it you know it’s all just a matter of what whether or not you’re satisfied with your progress and where you are and who you are and how you express yourself

R: so your pursuit for excellence when you’re saying I’ve got to get better at BJJ or archery on in or whatever that isn’t coupled with a sort of sense because you’re not fucking good enough that’s they don’t see or dive cause wonderment yeah I love it Julie joy in it and

J: there’s enthusiasm I mean in everything archery in particular it’s very you know there’s that book Zen in the art of archery which is it’s an interesting book. it’s you know I mean I think there’s some real great points to it but that state of mind that you get when you release an arrow, and that arrow perfectly finds its mark really is Zen. it’s you it requires so much concentration and focus and technique that you really don’t think about other things beautiful it’s cleansing and ways. its mind cleansing. I find jiu-jitsu to be very similar in that way to that it’s so all-encompassing it’s so there’s so much on the line it’s so difficult to do that while it’s happening you’re freeing your mind up I mean I think of video games in the same way

R: all of these things all of those things suggest a transmission between the inner and outer world isn’t it you’re looking at the bull’s eye and then oh my god I made this thing Traverse time and space or BJJ I’ve been shown again and again how to execute his triangle and I’ve just actually done it against resistance. it’s amazing to feel that. it’s amazing to feel that your inner life can express itself in the material world whatever well wherever you’re looking to explore that

J: and to test yourself and when you test yourself and you have to figure your way through something or change the path because the path you are on was unsuccessful when you’re doing that it’s it’s really good for the mind and for the I hesitate to say the spirit because I think that word spirituality is so beaten down and abused

R: you mean it become commodified yeah

J: it’s like yeah it’s like when people call themselves a healer you really really are all healing each other. but I think there’s something to doing difficult tasks that it makes life easier. I really believe that I think it makes life more enjoyable I think it makes the bright colors brighter, and it makes the the dull colors even them even though the the bad moments if you have real positive experiences with difficult things that you choose to do on your own I think it mitigates most of the hassle of life

R: yes I agree with that that is again and I’m not particular mote this book because I’d like all right we’ve however things do but the point of this mentorship is the idea that someone will exhibit qualities but you recognize you haven’t fully realized in yourself, and that you can sort of model them and realize them because later they you have those qualities

J: Oh like Kevin hora we were talking about how a boy I find his positive it made me think so real

R: it’s unbelievable on a practical level you know the way he’s building his stand up that fucking diligent and the amantha when he talked through his when he talked through his work schedule you caught you fetishize hard-working man I think. I’ve noticed about Dwayne Johnson and Kevin Hart buddy like you like the idea of men I’m up at those people asking – I’m in the cryo chamber

J: I don’t do that though I sleep in a lot of things that they don’t do okay but I also you know unlike the rock at least I do stand-up and Kevin does to stand up – obviously I don’t know if he does it as much or as often as I do because I do the clubs. I have a philosophy about what’s required to develop great stand-up that you have to do a lot of sets. you have to do a lot of numbers a lot of different places different environments and I found that out the hard way. through my best performances and my less good performances like what was missing and what did I gain?

R: you like this yeah I think he’s a sort of an interesting debate you know I don’t know if it’s in stand-up world at large but it’s anything I’ve thought about a lot he’s like that as soon as I was able to have an audience that would come and see me I was like I’m out thank you God! I’m never putting myself through that shit again! thanks Dan hope feels the same way whether he’s amazing absolutely fantastic I completely agree and like because I fought like because what I feel like is that the comedy club environment warps your material because you’ve got a appeal to them. and I think you ain’t the fucking arbiters of truth you’ve drunk and crazy – am i mother fuckers so I get like I perform I’ll what I’ll do it’s like I’m what I’m doing to say at the moment is I’ll book the UCB like her or like places 100 200 or go Largo or put on events and I’m doing events while I’m in LA because I think all these people come and they love me and they bring me beads here’s some vegan cookies and

J: you gotta come to the college dorm and go on after Joey Diaz

R: because I feel like I like a nurturing environment because I’ve done those fucking clubs and like you know an even Comedy Store and later night Comedy Store in LA you know as well as London and I thought oh Jesus thank God! and after so like I’m interested to you that’s part of that what I think some people could reductively refer to is machismo in you like that you go now I’m going in now

J: oh you know what it is it’s that guy that mounted you and went for the armbar and you escaped right it’s worth it because it was hard you’re like you realize if you if a child got on top of you and went for an armbar and you escaped you’d feel nothing. so when you’re at Largo you’re performing for children

R: child stand up it’s like

J: you’re dressing with 100-pound women who just started yesterday it’s not the make-a-wish Foundation Russell then tell us your stories thank you

R: thank you children the counter-arguments of nurses that therefore I am in an environment that is sympathetic and he is my audience and I’m not biasing I what you know the idea of it overcoming a greater obstacle completely appreciate what you’re saying. but say you believe in the purity of stand up as being some real expression of yourself as in the arrow hitting the bull’s eye. I feel like I have a vision of what I’m trying to achieve. and increasingly it’s becoming about I want my stand up. I want to hang on you know like as I’ve always done stories where I feel embarrassed and humiliated. but I want to hang off it ruminations on what I believe to be the nature of truth and I want people to come out of those things feeling loved validated accepted and that they’re good enough and that they can explore themselves you know that looks

J: more of a one-man show

R: in a sense is though I don’t want to like sacrifice the laughs you know I mean I love the loss the loss WAIS where we’re at y

J: ou know you don’t have a sacrifice in a one-man show I mean you can certainly do a one-man show that would be really funny

R: but say you start going into yeah that’s what I’m doing and I’m trying to build things like around 12 steps and trying to like doing things that people have some takeaway value from now like you know like trying to develop that after Joey Diaz in the store

J: there’s gonna be some resistance you are you aware of Hannah Gatsby and the controversial because you think about I haven’t seen it ya know what mister say I’m gonna see it but because what the end of comedy and all that kind of thing silly there’s no end of comedy but she what she’s doing people like. and there’s never you want sometimes it’s funny I mean maybe it’s stand-up comedy block it become a sort of quite aggressive towards illness yeah became like a TEDTalk almost oh yes apparently

R: I’m interested you know that’s you know yeah there’s enough room for everyone to exert to do whatever they’re doing. but like see at the beginning of my let’s call it career like I I used to not prepare at all I was still drinking the using I go up onstage I drop shit up I’d get into confrontation when I say chops you up I’d take up animals shit part animal parts I’ve got from butchers like like a skull we’ve all meat and stuff and sinew on it, chop it up for anyone’s release locusts get into confrontations of like so yeah exactly the reaction you’re having is the reaction they were having. like I was the front row I had like fights I’ve got scars on my body from Bad stand-up gigs. from a time where I go to a confrontation like I was making a point about pedophilia saying oh we’re all one cultural mind so when a particular pedofile is transgressed against a child were all responsible fuck well that’s how I’ve still got the scar on my leg that ham there Edinburgh in Scotland people didn’t take it well. what I was trying to do was like create I didn’t have the skills to chopped the experience than you know so is so under equipped. but like what I was trying to do was create environments that felt yeah I’m much better at doing that now. I can create that kind of an uncertainty in a room a kind of a sense of chaos and what’s happening and then bring it back you know I hope so a humorous conclusion where people feel safe and amused and all of that kind of stuff. now I think it’s you you cut like because I did cry and do that in comedy clubs and yeah it was conversation it’s not what people want so don’t you think that by prepping your stand-up in those environments that it biases you towards a type of stand-up comedy that is limited?

J: no because you can do that other stuff too you could always perform to your crowd and you could always expand on things to your crowd. but to really put it together without any fluff without any nonsense without being self-indulgent, with respecting the attention span of the audience that may or may not even be there to see you most likely is not if you go to a comedy club and there’s a large you know if you go to the Comedy Store any night of the week there’s 15 plus people on the marquee or on the list and the show starts at 8:00 p.m. or 9 p.m. depending on the night and it goes to two o’clock in the morning. and you know you catch waves in there and there’s different types of comedy. and in that you’re you’re gonna deal with sometimes tired audiences sometimes enthusiastic people it’s all different it varies widely. and I think that in doing that you cut all the nonsense out of your act. and you you develop economy of words you understand how to captivate people’s attention and keep them engaged and to respect their time. respect their point of view respect that these people have an attention span they want to be engaged in in the best possible way that you can do it and sometimes you develop that through these really difficult sets or you know or distracted people and drunks and all that stuff you can develop that those qualities you’re always gonna have your crowd and where your crowd I mean if you have this this vision of how you want to put things together you can put that kind of thing together at a comedy club you’re doing it in these 15 minute chunks you just have to figure out a way to grab them yeah and make them yes really interested in what you have to say

R: you’re right because there’s a obviously in like the Comedy Store between now as you just described there’s a contract we’re here not grania to see you we’re it laughs every 15 seconds and like you know comics like you know like Robin Williams or Chappelle’s that you know the all-time great they when they go in and accept those conditions you know you’ve seen stuff I’m sure like of Robin Williams he’s just like walking around in the crowd in that very room do it’s like it’s like he’s doing the thing I’m talking about and he’s doing it there. you know that’s when you think yeah if you like I suppose I do get at that you’re road-testing it to a huge durability to an incredible degree if you can pull it off it

J: yeah well think about every time you’re saying something when you’re you have a subject say say if you want to do you want to talk about the mentors that you have in life there’s it’s an open-ended approach. you have no idea what the correct way to say something is you try it you have you write it out you say this seems feasible let me try it this way. and oftentimes people never correct it or they never they never adjust it they never go back and improve it. they just say it in a certain way and figure out how to do it. when you’re doing it in front of a crowd you’re developing these things while also feeling the way people are reacting to them and feeling their attention span, and it makes you with proper reflection, and truly objective listening to your material it makes you change and shift and adjust things. you know hopefully in a positive way. get in and the more you do it the more you get a sense of “maybe this is clunky here and maybe I figure out a better way to say it” and

R: I agree but the counter-argument could be that it could buy us you two a sort of a lowest common denominator area say with that bit the way you talked about the Sun and you know it’s you know it you need it’s trying to kill you it gives you cancer you know like something like uh what was the journey of that bit of stand-up? is it’s not for me it’s like oh I think afore I try and make sure there’s a tag so I know where I’m going when I’m out there and then it’s a comparable process to yours you try your best to get rid of fluff or whatever so can you recall like what it’s like we know a you night after night going in with new bits of material packaged within things that you’re a little more confident?

J: yeah and I put that bit on a special I can do it better now I know a better way to do it and that’s part of the problem with doing bits it’s like sometimes you release them on a special you have a better version of it now but my point of that was to perspective enhance.r to let people know that bit was about like understand what’s happening here. you are literally floating in infinity and it’s almost never discussed. you’re hurling through forever there’s a fireball in the sky it’s a million times bigger than Earth if you stare at it you’ll go blind it’s trying to give you cancer and if it’s not there you get sad. oh yeah you live in a dream like this is madness! your life is madness. (beautiful) yeah it is but I wanted a there’s something about that particular way of express it sure in short doses and short bursts. if you know if you stared it’ll go blind, it’s trying to give you cancer, if it’s not there you get sad. so in that short bursts like bits you know like wow yeah that is all those things are true like yeah it’s crazy there really is a fireball floating in the sky we’re just used to it. we live because of a floating million times bigger than the earth fireball. and I when you say if you could say something like that and make someone laugh, you can actually change the way they look at things. you can actually affect at least the way they look at things. we just say something sometimes it’s profound, sometimes it registers. but if you could say something and it forces someone to laugh even if they disagree with you if they’re laughing like I didn’t fucking agree with this but holy shit this is funny! you put that thought deep into someone’s head. and you allow them to think about your thought process and and how your creative process and what you’re doing to sort of bring these things out

R: yes I like the way you just described the architecture of that you’ve got to basically have these are some facts about the Sun irrefutable. now here is how that affects the way we look at the world and exposes to us that we’re just ignorant we’re not awake to reality we can’t hold reality in our minds because it’s too vast to handle. I’m like it and I agree with you that you know what that wave laughter comes access to kind of deeper truths and I’ve heard some therapists in fact say that like that laughter is to shame what grief is to sadness. that laughter is helping to expel shame and to process shame. there’s something very important about people coming together and laughing together and I like to exist comedic Lee in a world where psy starts from a deeply personal perspective and admissions and acknowledgments of humiliation and shame and vulnerability and travels out to the universal and hopefully archetype although you can sort of travel between those points a comedian nothing we both admire Bill Hicks why I think is fascinating is because let you know like if you’ve loved Bill Hicks for a long while then you discover man that guy works material a lot! you know like you go I watched this interview of him on the Australian TV he’s doing like a bit that I’ve seen him do you know in multiple incarnations. but I have also seen him do interviews ways spontaneously talking about gigs terrible gigs have gone badly and he is hilarious. but it’s very interesting to me and perhaps it’s because of that background and that practice of doing clubs that Hicks is very much a comedian that’s no I’m drilling this fucking thing and I’m staying with it

J: you know he was a writer I mean he did ad lib but he did he was capable of going on these rants spontaneous rants but he was a writer you know he wrote these things out and he was aiming to have an impact with his commentary. I mean that was was was he was doing it was not just trying to make you laugh he was aiming to enhance your perspective on whatever he was talking about.

R: yeah and as a it was seems very disciplined yes a practitioner of it whereas like say a Chappelle if it was like you’ve got an hour well

J: you know he’s got a very unique process Chapelle does and he can turn over an hour like no one I’ve ever seen before and I was talking to Donnell wrongs about it recently who you know was on the Chappelle show with them he’s like we both agreed like he’s the best ever at turning over a new hour he can have a new what he could release a Netflix special and then have a new hour within a couple of weeks. he doesn’t he makes sense I don’t I don’t understand how he’s doing it

R: it must just fly in

J: he’s just he’s in a great space you know he’s in a great mindset to do comedy you know if you pay attention to how you know when when people study like if you read outliers and you read how people when people study why people are great at what they do and what makes them exceptional, there’s always a variety of factors. and whatever the factors are with Dave he’s got this easygoing personality this like very carefully carefree way of looking at things. he’s also gone through a lot of bullshit in his career with you know the the leavings the Chappelle Show and you know abandoning fifty million dollars in going to Africa, and really understanding with it what his real motivation was. He was caught up in that world where they were trying to change him and commercialize his television show he handled it as good as anybody that’s ever handled it yeah he handled fame and temptation I think better than anyone I’ve ever heard of he just said fuck you and he just went away he went away and then didn’t do gigs for years. people understand he would show up and do stand-up places, but he wouldn’t book anything. so like he wasn’t getting paid. he was just he did stand-up Dave Chappelle did stand-up in the park in Seattle. he brought like a little amplifier and a microphone set up and just started doing stand-up and people just gathered round hmm and he did this just to sort of get him back in touch with his roots because he used to do a lot of street performing in New York and I saw him do street performing in Montreal we did a club and then we came out of the club and Dave I think Dave was like 18 or 19 just started doing stand-up on the street. and put his hat out and people would put money in his hat I mean he was constantly sharpening that sword. and he stopped doing stand-up for a long time in terms of like booking gigs. and then after a while I said fucking I’m gonna come back again. and then he started doing these gigantic gigs and then of course he did his two recent Netflix specials were amongst his best work ever and you know and now he’s working all the time he’s constantly popping into the Comedy Store in the Comedy Cellar and all these different clubs all across the country and constantly doing stand-up ya no social media does not not involved in any of that stuff doesn’t do anything just just performs just does this stuff.

R: yeah that’s interesting. I feel that some people have like found the essence and found their path and live it. you like it and like that you know that the like they were a yogi or a priest or something. (that’s right) he’s just got a devotional this is Who I am I’m not doing anything there’s not that and it yeah that’s exhibited even in earlier stuff prior to the cry that over you know what you would do you know the crisis if the 50 million walk away thing like by then if he was at 18 doing them clubs he was hardened. he’s like you what that what seems so loose onstage was something that had been refined as a person who’s comfortable.

J: he was always good he was good when I first met him when he was like 18 I think he was 18 I was 21 so was somewhere in that range. Maybe I was a little older maybe who’s maybe it’s like how old’s Dave 46 47 I think he’s five years younger than me. Is that correct? 46 or 47 45 okay so he’s more six years six years younger than me. so you know I was probably 25 and he was probably 18 ish 25 26 18 17 but he was he was so like calm. He was very… it was you’re attracted to listening to him. it was like like look at this guy like this guy’s like so comfortable in his own skin and so friendly and easygoing and hilarious but who he was then and then who he became is all the work that he put in. He had this base of this really you know this curious young very wise person who saw things that other people didn’t see in the world and then he just kept going. Then of course the Chappelle show which is in my opinion the greatest sketch comedy show of all time even though it was only two seasons it’s the best ever. and then after that I mean he’s basically just done stand-up and done it completely outside of this system he’s done up some parts of movies and shit like that, but for the most part what he’s doing is just stand-up. completely outside of the Hollywood system completely free. just goes up you know just talk some shit has a couple of drinks laughs and and and a and it’s incredibly compelling. he’s found his groove you know and that’s it’s a beautiful thing to watch as a fellow stand-up comedy practitioner when someone he treats Yves this mastery level like we know we were talking about with this Hicks and Gracey of stand-up comedy level because that’s where he’s at right now.

R:Yeah I agree with you. become who you are yeah yeah he’s become himself

J: and he doesn’t have things that are getting in the way of that you know that’s what’s really interesting like you don’t see him he’s like he’s not on social media he’s not on anything Twitter or Facebook he’s not on any of that shit he doesn’t pay attention any of it he’s just just being a person just being a person and doing stand-up. you know it’s uh he doesn’t have to which is unique too. you know he doesn’t have to promote things they just sell out the end of

R: what an amazing example what an amazing example mm-hmm I’ve got promote some things so what do you go mentors I’ve really learned some powerful lessons there from the story of the apotheosis of comedy that Dave Chappelle’s achieved here’s these obligations now I’m booked here to promote Luminary. my podcast is gonna play a paywall on a platform called luminary aiming to be the Netflix of podcasts. meaning like that you know your model will I imagine triumphs further so like from like this week my podcast will be on luminary as part of their premium content. is an app through which you’ll get all podcast, but my podcast it’s like you’ve got says that launch now that’s launch cousin holidays yeah

J: I know that was in the process of being created are you happy with that because it’s not lost …

R:? I don’t know you know you know you it like that you’re gonna leave listeners behind because it’s done behind a paywall but I spoke to sort of less Sam Harris about like what he Sam Harris actually told me about it and he – yeah right right and I spoke to like and what I recognized this because like the advertising model works here obviously in your case. I thought well like there it was like “it’s a good deal it was a good deal” I mean I can carry on doing podcast form two three years that’s what you know what this you know it’s and it’s support in a lot of other content and essentially not yielding any creative control of people just if people subscribe they get the premium content my stuff how it was like only at 5 bucks a month like that you get like Trevor no I’ll lean on mine (how many different partners?) I don’t I think like when they’re premium content. is like 40 or 50 premium pot good like you know pieces of content mm-hmm so for me I thought like you know it felt like otherwise podcast wouldn’t be something that I could continue to do forever every set you know art because I do films or TV shows or stand-up or whatever so like a different like you know it did for me it wasn’t a viable thing to pay for. in order to pay for people to run it. to pay for guests to even get to me and all of that good stuff you know know what should you do ads on your podcast live then I did before but nowadays it’s an ad-free model.

J: there’s a benefit to that for sure. you know a lot of people choose to go ad free and then they use patreon or something like that yeah they’re supported stuff Sam Harris was doing that for a long time but then he they had an issue with patreon about certain censorship of certain individuals and certain ideological perspectives where they were you know leaning towards left-wing things and you know being being restrictive towards right-wing things and then you know they policing the way people behaved outside of patreon and some people found that objectionable so he left and some other people left like Jordan Peterson left and ah I’ve never entered into Patreon that’s into those waters but I know bird does it I think burr has like one a week that he does doesn’t really yeah he’s one of the best.

R: he’s so like but like I feel like yeah I feel like it’s an all right thing to do. but even in like just with using things like YouTube and social media and you know like Spotify iTunes whatever like you know as we have seen there’s a point where there is sort of censorship is a possibility. Like as you discussed on the Jacke like that run of episodes may as I said to you by text between the Jack Dorsey the reaction to that your response to the reaction through Alex Jones and all that simple I thought that was a spate of podcast that’s like this is where this medium can be. the Alex Jones podcast I thought was the godfather of podcasts.

J: We’ve seen the crook it was put it out tomorrow he just gave it to me so I yeah we have a guy who’s hilarious his name’s polytune. and polytune makes animated clips for us with podcasts and he’s fantastic I couldn’t he did one of the Alex Jones Eddie Bravo incident. yeah well they were there no not what he’s asking them to show from here (I went the flat earth?) enough no this one it’s so ridiculous here we’ll play it for you. I don’t hear what’s going on what’s the matter okay it was an exception if it looks like I’m here we go the guy does the awesome artwork do else

CLIP: we’re gonna give to this next and I respect you I want you guys to yell at each other for three minutes while I go pee I gotta pee too okay we’ll do in shit shit I’ll go first okay anyways

?: you are someone that I could talk to about the flat earth conspiracy you don’t believe in Flat Earth but you can kind of understand where I’m coming from what if I financed a research ship and make a documentary I can’t go over three months I will pay one of them with money can you race we’re gonna need a are you guys going to the zoo or in orbit okay you raise the money go pee go pee man you’re gonna find the edge of the world film the drop off with my iPhone yes yes go pee man go pee don’t you have to go

we’re gonna send someone else the governor you really think

AJ: there’s people out there campaigning for late term abortions you flame of course I believe that we went into a long conversation we played hurt it is so crazy that I always thought I was so tough doesn’t have to pee anymore the point is isn’t it why are we debating one of the earth is flat dude they’re keeping they have human-animal hybrids?


R: yeah yeah that’s good stuff. I feel like that is the pinnacle of where this medium can take us yeah watching like that’s like he was in an extreme state what about when he could go buy a be comfortable Kubla boy you be comfortable I never grease is like I listened to that podcast like I go on runs I’d listen to this fucking hell man where else are you gonna get this content? where is that guy… ?

J: well there’s no one would ever agree to it anywhere else that’s the thing you’d never get a group of people whose jobs depended upon keeping this show on the air. whether the producers are executives they would never agree to that they’d be like you can’t have that crazy fucker on! you can’t have this on you can’t have Eddie Bravo on all the time. you think Stump world is flat. stop this!

R: you’re travelling between such a diverse and unusual ideas. and sort of the thing with Alex Jones as well is that he’s like he’s got it demonstrates to a point that there’s veracity in what he’s saying in some things.

J: yeah he’s right about a lot of things you know we was talking about animal-human hybrids we started pulling up these studies they actually have done studies where they’ve tried to create animal-human hybrids. Non-viable Amaral animal human embryos, they’re trying to grow human organs in different animals and there’s all sorts of weird scientific shit though we’re doing imagine what they’re doing in China behind walls look at this: “China’s latest cloned monkey experiment is an ethical mess”.

Jamie: they used CRISPR to add to human genes into monkey genes and there’s like five monkeys this happened back in January and

J: his is a fucking horror movie this is a heart this is how the horror movie begins why did you think that once if that’s what’s being written

R: the truth is darker yes for sure

J: for sure they’re trying to create super soldiers someone is trying to create some super soldier some half champ half human super intelligent murderous thing that’s powered by remote control.

R: that is not a good objective no I don’t see a good outcome for this super intelligent murderous remote-controlled giant being

J: what if you could send those super intelligent murderous chimps to go kill Isis now now we’ve got a reason to snow getting out there now we need look we’ve got a nice contract with this defense contractor and they’re gonna

R: that’s how we lubricate the passage to the murderous monkeys is Isis that’s the function of Isis in their cultural conversation is to justify the monkey soldiers

J: you know what one scared me more than anyone that I’ve ever read? I read about this thing that DARPA was putting together. so a robot called the eater robot EA TR robot it’s a robot that fuels itself on biological matter. so it essentially could eat bodies. so you’ve got a murderous robot that eats people.

R: The worst kind of things that human beings could achieve it’s like people are sat around trying to come up with them

J: well they’re that you know the date they’re responsible for a lot of really crazy innovation in terms of like military stuff. Boston Dynamics you know they’re the ones that make those crazy robots and they work with DARPA and those are the ones that make those robots that you can’t kick over. all right you know I mean that’s what you need one of those that eats people and you send them to the battlefield. for you kick it over no that’s the first thing we established is you can’t kick it over I just think that’s that’s the big fear is that future warfare will be our robots versus their robots.

R: if we’re starting to bring about the worst aspects that the worst things that a human being can conceive of this channel them through into reality it does make you fear that the apocalypse is here. I thought it was bad enough when in the malaise of my younger days I like for a while imagine if there was a cleaning service where the person will come around and clean dressed scantily. (they do that) whatever devious shit you can dream up someone’s trying to turn a buck off it and if they’ve taken it to the extent of the non kick over the robot flesh eating robots

?: yeah a new video today watch this this is so scary this is Boston Dynamics yeah

R: there’s something very eerie about that type of motion. you know that the way the movement of a snake is deeply coded to be unpleasant when you see it. they say maybe think that move me think that ain’t good the truck is telling Wow oh my god they’re polar truck) when it’s tiny little Tootsie’s knows that they’re that strong they get a truck come on a robot that’s a giant ass truck I mean he is also just a husky sled made out of expensive robots and a truck they’ve spent a lot of time and endeavor to go backwards I guess kinda but to an Asian Santa Claus they’re showing how strong these things are I don’t like I don’t like their gait Joe that’s an unpleasant gait y

J: yeah you should be on you should be uncomfortable with it. yeah that’s how I’m not easy at ease with that it’s not it’s not animal there’s no compassion in it this is it’s it’s feelingless but that’s what you got to worry about episode of black mirror or the lady gets chased down by the drones (I’ve not seen that why they’re one-way they’re bees?) no there’s a woman who’s being haunted she’s being hunted by a robot and it’s terrifying because if it’s remorseless lack of humanity and empathy looks just like that looks just like those things those real

R: Holly Brooker he’s been to me that man’s could imagine that

J: he’s amazing he’s amazing that show is fantastic but these things look what we have to worry about is once artificial intelligence become sentient, and you can somehow or another attach it to these objects that move, and they they run solar power or they have you know nuclear fuel cells or some crazy shit that allows them to exist for a long period of time. now you’d have to worry about them contaminating environments if your planet killing everybody in the environment.

R: also there’s no means of regulation is there? because this because this is the apex of human endeavor, they’re in what what can govern that? what can regulate it? and like you say there’ll be a Chinese equivalent for any of this stuff there’s nothing that’s above it going no is this a good idea? should we pull back? what it is you just pulled up a thing so they’re making that now you’ve got

Jamie: that one I just showed you. there good hundred different models of it are going to be available starting production this summer

J: hmm doesn’t say how much they’re going well but available for people to buy well it’s a hundred different model says produce a hundred models that probably means it’ll produce a hundred of them mm-hmm like a hundred different companies are gonna want them but I bet it’s more than that yeah and spending about how much they cost

Jamie: it doesn’t say how much it’s gonna cost they’re gonna announce that later. They showed a robot arm coming oh that looks so crappy look at that thing imagine we have one of those things in the room filming we should get one no no way we come here

J: it’s got red eyes it’s like fuck you fuck you (what were the first ones to help be friendly just listening to us like Alexa)

R: that’s how it begins isn’t it yeah there’s something arachnoid ‘nearly about that it’s almost like you know that see if this tunes into the DMT component of what we’ve been talking about it’s almost as if we’ve already experienced this reality we’ve already been through the version where those evil insectoid robots take over so when we see on the screen we all know we’re doing that thing! we’re doing that thing where we create those things that bring about our destruction! and I believe it’s because we’ve become biased to commerce and a particular type of progress. but one narrative has succeeded because we necessarily have to throw off religion but you know at the dawn of the secular age because religion was becoming systems of bias and systems of oppression and whatever systems of what I want to say elevating certain types of power one supporting it at least. that’s good hang on a minute this religion and lot of it seems like bullshit! what we’ve done is we’ve abandoned the sacred. and I think if you abandon the sacred meaning there is more to life than what we can understand I listen to the Brian Cox episode and I’ve spoke to Brian Cox the British physicist astrophysicist on my show as well. and when he talks about like he said that you know we know that there’s not some additional component to a human being because we can break down everything that happens when you move an arm. you know whatever and I feel like we only have limited instruments. we only have limited instruments there’s certain frequencies that we simply cannot read. what else is going on when people are having these transcendent psychedelic experiences? we’re accessing elements of consciousness energies and frequencies that we are not able to access while we’re in this state. and everything we’re achieving and everything we’re building we’re building on this platform and the bias of this platform is towards pride progress and materialism. and I think the result is fleshy in robots and those evil monkey warrior soldiers we might want to calm down, and talk about what is we’re trying to design.

J: yeah I don’t know if I agree with Brian on that particular point that we think we know everything about where consciousness emanates. I don’t think that’s necessary but I like the fact that he thinks that way because he’s such a rigid hardliner for science. and yeah the guy works at CERN I mean he’s a brilliant brilliant man so of course he thinks yeah I also don’t think he’s ever had a DMT experience.

R: that’s right, I wonder that. yeah these some people I think give him a quick dose you know like because I as well I respect Brian and it’s further to my point similar to the hunting argument I can but you know I happen to believe in God.but like I when I talked to Brian Cox I got to the point where I’m saying all right even though I believe in God and you are an atheist that oh he said I don’t call myself an atheist what I felt like we both got to the point where we said compassion kindness and love are the most important things. in this way who cares?

J: so when I say there when you say you believe in God do you believe in the traditional god of Christianity? do you believe in God it’s a concept? you have your own definition for it there

R: I believe that that state of oneness and transcendence that you’re talking about when you threw your DMT experiences that says you know love and kindness and love and awareness. I believe that is the most real thing. I think that preceded all matter. and I think that we that we can interact with it. so I don’t believe God in a sovereign just a guy away that the whole world is like an interactive by a biological living breathing goddess. I believe that we I believe yes that and that we can commune with it. Furthermore, the relevance of it for me is that it it suggests to me that we should be acting kindly and lovingly. and when we’re thinking about how do we organize our systems that our awareness of that energy accessible to all of us should be paramount in our understanding of how we organize. so like what I think is like that we should look at you know like we’ve been through as human beings in so many advents that agriculture technology industry thinking that we were that the you know the Sun went around there thinking that the earth was flat with all due respect to Eddie brother and we and before each of these realizations in each of these changes we always think we’re at the summit. we never know what’s gonna be the thing that’s going to change. my suspicion is that what’s going to change is that the way we relate to consciousness and the way we see ourselves as individuals. that we start having understanding that what the that becomes a priority that thing you described of like when I have come back from DMT trips I recognize this is just an illusion and it’s not real I think that will stuck like I believe that we need to prioritize that and progressing along that line. what are the implications of this not being the most real frequency there is how do we organize society on that basis how does that affect how we relate to one another what kind of how should we be governing how does that affect justice that that should be in the mix instead of how many fucking terrifying arachnoid weird gate robot motherfuckers can we you know like that’s the way we’re going the progressive technological route because it’s created medicine because it saves so many lives but it’s given this wonderful technology the spirit of entrepreneurialship but all of that energy it all gets pushed in one direction. you know it all goes that way. and I feel that we need to invite that back the sacred and the divine need to be back in the conversation

J: well there’s certainly going to be pros and cons with everything you know there’s definitely pros and with the creation of Technology I think of this I think of human beings as if you go back to single-celled organisms they have very little awareness of their environment. and then as it became primitive bugs you know as things evolved, they developed more awareness.but even us in comparison to certain animals certain aero animals have heightened senses of smell and survival instincts but they’re also color blind you know and they they don’t see things they see edge detection like that’s one of the things about deer. they see movement so like if you wear camouflage and you know your your pattern is broken up with a grid. and then you stay put. they don’t see you yeah they’re just it doesn’t mean it doesn’t register to them they see movement so we have a far more complex system of recognition than they do in terms of like visually the way we see things and I think that whatever skills or whatever sense is that we’ve evolved I don’t think that’s it. I don’t think that we’ve reached the pinnacle of it. and I think that as beings become more and more evolved they’ll probably gained more and more senses and that could be directly related to technology. it’s totally possible that what’s going on with technologies that we’re also developing through external means a way for us to see the world. a way for us to view like what they’ve done with the Large Hadron Collider is like the best example of it right. what they do with the Hubble Space Telescope and other telescopes you’re using technology to gain awareness and to see more things and that this is the good side of technologies that it’s allowing us to have a far greater understanding of all the variables that surround us. that we might not be able to detect with our senses. yes that this is a part of who we are and then I think when you’re talking about things like psychedelic experiences that’s probably another realm of understanding that we haven’t really achieved yet because we’re we’re still evolving as a species as a thing

R: what I think is interesting is that the continual bias along that technological path is towards profit you know when we see those the endpoint is always how do we make how do we maximize profit? there is no like the influence of how do we do what’s right. that’s like a sort of a purse like a sort of a general ethical what I wanna say sort of code is not being introduced there is no regulation like you know ultimately you know ultimately people will create the warrior monkeys or the most profitable machines. people because the the counter-argument isn’t being made no one is like what I’m saying no one’s making it there’s just there’s no union of you know there’s no clear opinion of hang on a minute where could we be going? no there is no body or ideology that’s able to oppose the relentless march of capitalism. I’m not sort of like a flat-out or capitalism is bad Here I am promoting a book using an iPhone or you know I mean I’m we’re all swimming in it. but what I’m saying is that if we acknowledge there are transcendent realms there there is information day and data that exists beyond what we’re able to receive of our senses. how are we going to incorporate that in the way we organize because otherwise the sort of the magnetism the pool the g-force of what’s most profitable what’s going to continue to suit the requirements of the powerful that will always the bias will always fall in that direction. and it seems like where that’s heading is certain kinds of ecological disaster certain kinds of economic inequality certain kinds of conflict you know and like we’re not one of the simple experiments that I apply is you know if we you know if we people say oh what’s wrong with the world world so fucked all this polarity I sometimes think well who is benefiting from how it is now? are there is anyone benefiting are there any groups institutions or individuals for whom this current state is beneficial? and if the answer to that question is yes then look at who those institutions are and they are most likely to a degree involved in establishing and maintaining these systems and there are you know institutions and individuals and organizations that this works just fine for

J: but are they just capitalizing on it or are they organizing it and there’s a normal part of the way human beings operate with this constant desire for innovation constant desire for improvement we always want to push further no no one’s comfortable where they are they will always want to be in a better place and this is almost like it’s built into capitalism I agree that this materialism which is built into capitalism also is what fuels innovation yeah because you want the newest iPhones so they have to design it and build it and make it all right and when new things come out like this new robot that apparently you’re gonna hundred models whatever that means what that is is this is they’re gonna sell it so there’s like it’s fueling innovation someone else will come along and compete with Boston Dynamics and then there will be there would be innovation wars. if these innovation wars weren’t in place right now our phones would look nothing like the iPhone 10 it just wouldn’t. we like to sx it would look like who knows what would look like? but there would be no no incentive for them to compete against all these samsung devices and huawei devices and all that stuff is fueling this innovation but it’s all being fueled by capitalism

R: you’re quite right that the innovation is one of the benefits of the maintaining this system but it seems to me that we are excluding other factors. like that recur throughout human cultures we all have an idea of fairness of justice. and yeah I don’t want some clunky weird sort of Eastern Bloc phone made out of grey plastic. but like we have to I suppose examine as a society and as individuals what is important to us? there where I think you know we’ve talked touched several times upon you know the fact that as an individual you’re more likely to bias yourself towards negative information online. you know like we do have a degree of individual power and individual responsibility and I feel like if enough people awaken to the possibility of different narratives that the the capitalist idea of innovation and success and progress that all of these words can be examined what do you mean progress that assumes a teleology a purpose a destination if all time is happening at once if space is infinite like you know that bit of yours of like you know to try and fathom for a moment the limitlessness that we’re existing within then all these things are construct this is a construct and it is good to have technology but it’s possible to like at point times of crisis such as what it feels like we’re at now and although that people have said well we always feel that every generation thinks that they’re the one because they know their own impending death is coming and they narrative eyes that is something social and global regardless there’s gotta be a time where we start to introduce different ideas into our systems it seems like there’s room for that now because we do live in a truly global culture that there is the possibility for monoliths to introduce new innovation and there is nothing that can oppose it or regulate it. we’re starting to see this kind of breakdown. so I’m interested in how we can individually prepare ourselves to organize society differently to be over to overcome pretty superficial differences like are you go honey and I don’t go hunting we ain’t gives a fuck? they start talking about how we can organize the size where people who go on in or don’t go on in can live peacefully in different ways not entirely governed by a small cabal you know and I’m sure Platt power is more complex than that that seemed to be hugely biasing the direction of this so-called progress I think you answered your own previous questions when you’re talking about whether or not you can be spiritual and funny and like what are you doing can you carve that path out for yourself that what you’re doing there by

J: explaining that would influence people would give people a perspective that allows them to say yeah like why are we doing this and what is the purpose of this and if enough people hear those words and have that perspective introduced to them it’ll change the way they interact with the world and that changes the world it really does and that’s one of the more powerful things about discussions when someone like you says something like that and it resonates with people and they start thinking like why am i living like this like what if I only have if I really do only have 50 years to live why am i living these 50 years in some really unproductive bullshit way that’s not satisfying at all because I just want a bigger house? like what is it do I want a faster car? don’t want a expensive piece of jewelry? like what is what is the purpose of this path that I’m on now versus a path that I could be on? and what is the real conflict that we all experience between each other is it how much of it is due to a lack of communication how much of his due to a lack of real listening and understanding? one of things I’ve said about like comments and podcasts and stuff like that I think one of the reasons why a lot of people get mad and I’ve tried I think this through like why some people some of the response is so negative to things don’t it seem innocuous on the outside I think it’s because it’s frustrating when you don’t have a say yeah like a suit you and I are talking about something there’s probably some guy right now going well just fucking stop with all your spiritual bullshit here’s what you do you wake up when your fucking alarm clock goes off you never hit snooze you get out the door you put your hours in eventually you get better you take care of your family yeah act like a fucking man … and there’s probably people like that that are they’re upset they feel like we’re pontificating too much and this is all just you know just mental masturbation you’re right in ways it is but that’s part of how you dissolve these things and think these things through

R: I believe they deserve their say yeah well and that’s one of the things that you know if being a person that goes to sort of 12-step support groups is you recognize that everyone’s individual experience that is valuable. yes so it’s not like that and I’ve got over the idea that that there’s some external thing can be imposed. and like you know whilst there like many people that are you know we could say not using their 50 years to maximum effect because they are you know pursuing odd material goals. there are you know many many more people that unknown introduced to the idea of freedom because from the moment they’re born they’re economically tyrannized. you told that you’re only if you are not economically valuable to this system you are not valuable at all and that isn’t that’s only an idea. but you know if you don’t know you know if you can’t become a lawyer or you know a comedian or whatever fuck you

J: well so many of us are trapped in the expectations and values of our parents too that’s a real problem with people don’t let their children become an individual. you know they force their children to follow their own rigid ideology shame them when they don’t

R: I agree with that but do you not imagine that a fair degree of that stuff is unconscious do you agree probably unconsciously imposing things

J: on our 100% but not guilt and women if your kid comes to you and say daddy no I know you wanted me to be a doctor but fucking I want to play bongos I just want to be the best bongo player of all time I bet you’d probably like hey learn the fucking bozos give me a hug yeah go get those bongos get out there come the best BAM bang Goa you can there or even mediocre sure but there are fathers out there be like the fuck you are you’re gonna be a goddamn doctor stop being a pussy and you’re gonna go back to medical school and you’re gonna pick up your studies we want to get you a tutor and you’re gonna perform because we’re a Wilson this Wilson family’s been physicians since 1820. your grand time immemorial the Wilsons have been physicians he’s made people bite down on a leather strap before amnesia he sawed off legs and he kept those people alive. you want to play bongos you little fuck yeah people get mad

R: but my biases towards my kid like like so fine like when we was back in England like I was aware of like grandparents or whatever reacting spiders and stuff going our spiders are scary and then fucking teach him that spiders are scary I don’t want her to think of things as scary tell it like this spiders are cool they’re all right there’s nothing you know but I say and you’re aware of a familial influence like that they wanted the hair to be a certain way they wanted to wear certain things they wanted to hear like yeah part of the veganism is like if you make these kids vegan at least now I know wherever they go there’s gonna be so many restrictions on their food I’ve not made the kids vegan it’s up to them you know thank you where’s my gold stuff it’s my ticker tape parade and but like so but like you know I don’t know what you know we don’t know our own biases we don’t know what where we’ve been institutionalized you know because how you know the very nature of the unconscious is we are not aware of it you know so I suppose in a sense a continued open mindedness and a willingness to change must be part of any dialogue to go into these situations you know I might not actually know what that’s why I’m not when I was 20 if you’da said about their hunting I’d be like oh no man do I love Jesus there’s so many ways of seeing the world there’s so many ways of looking at what’s real and what’s correct I’m you know what I think with hunting hunting is like many things and that there’s no real clean answer there’s no yes or no good or bad because you could think there is but then you find circumstances like wild pigs or invasive species like I go hunting on a place called the nine it’s um one of the small islands of Hawaii mm-hmm there’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 people and 20,000 deer it is so overpopulated with deer hmm and they have to kill them to kill them every day they hire snipers they hire people killing people are slamming in with their cars I mean they’re fucking everywhere and their access deer they’re not even from there they’re from someone brought them over from India to give to King Kamehameha and like the 1800s they’re they’re animals actually that evolved to get away from Tigers so there’s this insanely fast beautiful deer that are

J: everywhere they’re forced to kill well the good news is the people that are low income people of the island always have me there’s there’s meat everywhere everyone can hunt it’s really easy to find them you can you could find them and if you you know if you want you can go kill them

R: yeah I’ve got no moral judgement about that you know if there’s rats in my house what I’m not gonna put down poison I’m gonna go up but that’s a thing that is allowed to get Larry you should

J: probably feel bad about killing a rat right

R: as a vegan I do feel bad everything I’m hungry what about yeah I wouldn’t I wouldn’t swap a mosquito even way even that llama even the Dalai Lama low I see him he went like the first time a gentle brash the second time a harder one, third time smack! the Dalai Lama like you know you Dalai Lama gives him free chances. you might be reincarnated as a bear can I go for the play yeah sure sure go ahead man it’s almost three o’clock already you believe it or not he said your

J: character is neat he’s got these incredibly long rants you know but he’s so self-aware and introspective he’s they’re always analyzing himself trying to find if he’s doing right. I get a kick of these celebrity dudes doing jujitsu – I think it’s hilarious. it’s awesome it’s cool. it’s cool here I’m talking about it you tell you know the struggles with it. I just saw someone else said they just started it I can’t remember who it was someone famous yeah I might not be relevant at all but I’m trying to think Demi Lovato is like a purple belt or some shit. she’s been into it for a long time. Russell who you know I’ve trained with it Russell’s a legit blue belt I rolled with Russell and I was like wow Russell really knows jujitsu! he’s actually doing the right stuff here. it’s hard! it’s hard for someone to go from a place of where a guy like Russell Brand is. handsome beautiful famous man who has got some strange plumber sitting on his face yanking on his arm (his description of it is awesome) about feces in this bowels and yeah that veganism stuff’s for the birds though sorry vegan people to eat eggs if you don’t want to kill any animals please just find find a good farm that has pasture-raised eggs and see how much better you feel. or eat animals they’re assholes should find animals that are assholes in the woods only eat the assholes. somebody sent me this horrible video that I’ve seen many times before of a bear killing a deer in a backyard and a deer screaming the Bears tearing it apart I’m sure you’ve seen that before right? and he sent it to me and he goes okay now I get it. I thought like if a bear got a deer that it would be just oh hey this is just how nature works! like no this is a horrific violent act of this animal tearing this other animal apart now would you prefer that than a hunter because 99 times out of 100 when a hunter kills an animal it’s way quicker. there that’s the video it’s horrible! it’s a horrible video. this animal I think it’s actually a black bear I think it’s either a grizzly or a color phase black bear but it takes a long time to if you haven’t seen the video it’s a long one and the animal makes some horrible noises. we’re talking about returns talking about a video that I’ve seen before about this bear that kills this deer in this guy’s yard the guy films in the deers making these horrible noises. and this guy sent sent it to me and he goes “now I get it” because I get what the wild is actually all about because you don’t really see it that much you don’t really it’s very rare that you actually see an animal kill an animal so we have these romantic Disney find ideas of what the food chain looks like out there

R: yeah nature’s brutal I mean I don’t try and impose on my dog the kind of conditions that I would hold myself to.

J: you should have an organic garden if you really want to do it right cuz if you’re getting into large-scale agriculture you’re buying food from people that grow it they’re running over fucking rabbits and mice and killing things with pesticides and there’s no there’s no removing yourself from death but just by eating vegetables it’s just you don’t they have to reap also they have to like when with large-scale agriculture there that ground all those animals get displaced yeah you know it fucks the whole ecosystem up whatever area they’re planting on and then when they roll over it with those gigantic combines and pull up that grain they’re chewing up everything! that’s why vultures always circle where combines are. as soon as they have fresh cut the vultures start showing up because they know there’s gonna be something that got jacked

R: see once you know that that monoculture is unhealthy there are only resistance to or in it having not permaculture and the healthier better agricultural models is Commerce and profit that’s not ok

J: no no no your communes which you could have as a community gardens

R: yes yes you could but the only real but like if you start if we start saying hey why don’t we not have monoculture anymore because it’s unfair and it’s unreasonable they go we can’t because it’s profitable to have it and people won’t be out forward food. but all of that is like it you know a city an interrelated system that sort of gridlocked into protecting itself. yeah you know like there’s a spiritual maxim wisdom is acting on knowledge and that is not the world we live in. we know things and then we just ignore it. you know like as individuals or as or as you know corporations and as groups. and like what I feel like I’m trying to do is an individual ways hold myself to that standard. it’s like I know that’s not good for me to do that anymore I’m not gonna do that I’m gonna do like I’m gonna watch myself and I’m gonna watch that behavior and I’m gonna try and improve. you know like I don’t want to go like when my first impulse in heading down today Ribeiro Jiu Jitsu plays I feel nervous. and I’m feel confident doing it I don’t want to go or whether it’s like giving up me or whatever but I’m doing these things in a sense I think these are the kind of improvements I can make. now like when you we almost don’t expect that of politic anymore. you don’t expect us of a political figure to say well listen monocultures I’m a terrible impact they’ll make some gestural thing wouldn’t let it go look we’re gonna try and control Facebook and Google a little bit. and we’re gonna try and reduce emissions this amount now let go listen we know that’s wrong we don’t do that anymore because there’s too many powerful interest! that’s why I was susceptible to the vegan documentary you know of course there’s the ethical reasons in my opinion for becoming vegan but because it’s like the reason that these kind of foods are promote it is because these powerful groups lobby government and Lobby the group the organizations that set the standards until they shut up and comply

J: you could sort of say that about vegetable based foods to power vegetables just corn just growing that’s the same that is the same you know like you’re saying that

R: the reason that is continuing is because it’s profitable and but but these ideas aren’t going to get explored because we’re on one path one teleological journey like that sometimes what I feel like when people talk about the frets of different cultural influence eg Islam for example right but I feel like what we already live in a kind of fundamentalism that’s invisible to us because it’s all we know. we live in a culture that if something isn’t profitable it will not survive. and I don’t think that’s how human beings are set up to exist. I have this rather lovely anecdote: about like I was coming back from a gig and it was a woman like she her car broke down beside the road I had a driver forgive me forgive me I’m not poor anymore forgive me I had a driver and we see this woman she’s better car beside the road of cars broke down and different like it’s a nighttime and like a few different people stop and help her the first guys like it is in England it’s like a Polish immigrant guy comes and helps you know my drivers Muslim geezer he’s helping I’m trying to help pretty and efficient mayor say because you know like if you’re a famous person when you go into a situation there’s some times you don’t want to be recognized isn’t and it’s quite a good to be recognized when you’re not recognized at all I always think I’m not being all recognized in this situation no one recognized me in that time so I was just there weird geezer at the side of the road trying to help someone who had a minor accident without any relevant skills. then someone stopped with relevant skills he was like a paramedic he took control of the situation he was ordering people around you stand here you do this go and get that go and get my head torch he said at one point he had a fucking head torch this guy serious. like he was like he brilliantly resolved the situation and you know adored her do you mean do you mean like a light he had a head torch yeah not a torch like a light I’m sorry burn easy welding I just wanted to clarify errs what’s that why doing in there that’s necessary colour ever you innit you can eat that you round off the second syllable of colour you savage yes with your color colour we can’t even say snooker we say snooker we can’t even pronounce a sport that we don’t burn him catfish catastrophe the way you burn him burn I know burning happen firming and verbing Ham Birmingham listen this guy had what you would evidently call a headlight even that doesn’t sound right was headlamp a headlamp yeah like that’s an odd thing that’s cool no no I have one well your headlamp in your car yes what do you anticipate in if you get stuck somewhere man if anything happens you should have a headlamp this is the kind of person that you want pulling over well listen when you go hunting

J: one of the things that happens is you’re in the woods and when that happens when the Sun Goes Down you can’t see where the fuck you’re going you have to have a headlamp how every hundred very far I have a really good one oh yeah I have a really good one

R: lighting stuff up isn’t that gonna

J: well your don’t hunt at night right it’s illegal once the Sun Goes Down there’s no hunting you have to be able to see what you’re shooting out I shoot a person see some source it rolls lights on your header just to help you navigate through the woods and to spot predators because of course if you’re vulnerable. you know and you see giant eyes ahead that are 9 feet off the ground you’re like oh fuck it’s a bear! it’s a two-way street yeah that happens I’ve had experiences where I’ve ran into predators in the wild. particularly one time in Canada I ran into a grizzly bear. and looking in the eyes and wasn’t even a big one it was like a 6-foot bear wasn’t huge but it looks right through you. it looks right through you and so when you run into an animal that’s killing shit every day and it looks at here’s I got demonic-looking it’s honest I’ve meat I’ve seen black bears before you don’t see that look. Grizzly bear which is you know more predatory they have a crazy look in their eyes it’s really interesting

R: I made eye contact with a couple of predators a shark once in a shark cage on like when I was doing that film Sarah Marshall that done years ago yeah well when in a shark cage and right and they lower you down and you see a shape a shark come toward you it’s like it’s swimming through time it’s like it’s come from another ear it looks at you would like you think oh fuck you know and like and I was terrified in that cage. and like like Ed Norton was there and with the Olson they were on that island as well they were mates with people that were on the movie they go in the water outside of the cage. bother other fucking mind that’s insane is near this shark was little when apparently it’s not kind of shot easy but even the eye contact then it’s fucking teeth I don’t even look it and then another thing I looked at once I was in a tiger sanctuary in India. and I like I didn’t like the vehicle I was in. there’s a Jeep over there so I got out of it to transition and my mate goes you more getting a corner might just fucking Tiger over there! and it was a tiger like only 10 foot away. and maybe I’m exaggerating on a 20-foot maximum like if it was near and the way that that thing I mean it cuz it’s so beautiful as well the intensity of being looked at by that fucking creature there’s some powerful shit you don’t want iContact without I don’t want to look at something that’s got like that you can’t negotiate with. you can’t I feel look at me even with the jiu-jitsu like I’ve got that little moment where I go ray come on we sell Russ yeah with a I go she doesn’t care about your mortgage. yeah neither does that grizzly bear doesn’t care they look through you kids

J: yeah they don’t care it’s just but that’s all it’s doing all day long it’s a killing thing it’s unbelievable

R: cuz that’s as true as everything we are effect on it just to ask please

J: don’t know what that is so their idea of what the wild is is really based on two things once they’re their actual love of animals they know right it’s like dogs and cats so the animals that we know we as we we have this connection with them so we think that these are animals. They’re science projects man those are not animals real animals don’t give a fuck about you! they in either indifferent to you or they’re scared of you or they want to eat you. that’s real animals the relationship that you have with a dog is like a child like my dog is more like a child to me than he is like an animal. I mean he’s like my little friend that doesn’t get to speak. he doesn’t talk but you know an animal in the wild is a competing organism they’re competing amongst all the various organisms in whatever ecosystem they’re in and either they’re at the top or they’re somewhere below that. and that’s just how it goes and every deer is looking around cuz there’s cats and the cats are slowly sneaking up on them every fucking day of the week. and if you go in a place where there’s deer you best believe there’s gonna be mountain lions there because that’s how it operates! and when you see that in the water it’s so rare it’s so rare to be around that but when you see that in the wild then you get a deeper understanding of what it means to be an animal. yeah what’s horrific is factory farming what’s perverse and disgusting is the way animals are treated when these livestock companies pump these animals in these warehouses and make them stand in their own shit all day and then abuse them, and the horrific nature in which they’re raised yeah all that should be illegal. yeah gag laws those laws where whistleblowers get arrested those should be illegal those are immoral! they’re letting people know what goes into your food and those people are being punished for that all that shit is grant they’re being punished because it hurts business yes well it should fucking hurt business you’re doing something that we all think is immoral that’s how I feel about it I don’t think there’s anything wrong with even if they if if there should be standards and how cows are raised how chickens are raised let them live like actual cows. (that’s beautiful) and there’s a way that they can do that where people like Chris Pratt yeah from guardians got a great guy he has he raised his sheep and he eats them and he even gives them out to people he has butchers that take care of it. these sheep are treated like like they’re loved they’re not scared of people and then literally they get walked into this room they have no idea what’s gonna happen a bolt gets put on the top of their head bang and the lights go out. now you could say that should never happen and those sheep should just live forever. okay you could I could understand that argument. or you could say boy if you’re going to eat meat and you’re going to eat the meat of an animal that you know how it lived and there was no horrific moments in its life, it’s just one day the lights went out that seems like the best most ethical way to do it maybe even perhaps more ethical than hunting. yes because when I’m hunting an animal it’s you know it’s out there in this this crazy state where it’s always looking to get eaten these sheep have no idea they can be eaten. they think that everybody is their buddy, and then one day they die.

R: yeah man I agree with that you know yeah there’s it’s difficult to bring ethics to that that’s clearly in my view a matter of opinion some people think that’s okay but

J: someone it’ll say they get turned around on me and say you could do that same like thought experience with people like why don’t you just see people well okay the person live a perfect life you put a bolt in the top of their head and bang shut the lights out and then they turn it to barbecue

R: look yeah that’s a very pronounced and vivid way but I would say that in a sense we’re all like we’re being commodified imprisoned in clothes you might like the very fact that a law has been made to prevent people regulate in or revealing the truth around that revealing showing shows where the true bias of this system is. in a way I think that one of the cultural jobs this podcast has performed and this is like whether deliberately or not is it demonstrates that the old political lines that we used to comfortably abide within a starting to sort of break down. because you know like something like an obvious signifier of a particular type of person ie I go hunting now we have to accept is coupled with your view that the agricultural industry needs to be regulated and it’s disgusting now there are you know there we have complete and total agreement, and we both can see that the way that legislation is set up is biased towards corporate interest commercial interests and profit. yeah and so for me weather you know Chris pet privately owned sheep I think you know problem man well that’s not I don’t need to spend my time worried about that I’m a little bit like Alex Jones like with the why we worrying about flat earth they’ve got them babies and all of that stuff? it’s like why don’t we focus on the things that are making a genuine difference to the way people are living lives? yeah and it seems to me that one of the priorities is in a new global landscape that we’re living with what are the dominant forces and what are the goals of the dominant forces? and how detached those goals from the lives of what you might say are ordinary people or the majority of people to use it less in a complex term?

J: and what’s probably most horrific about reforming the system is that the people that are going to suffer the most of the people that are the poorest so if you think of like fast food in particular right there’s a lot of like really poor people that rely on fast food because it’s very inexpensive. if you go and you can get a lot of calories for a small amount of money right? but if you go from the fast food restaurant and then you go down the line to factory farming and then somehow no they eliminate factory farming and they say no no if you’re gonna raise animals you have to have the same sort of standards that we would expect if we knew you if we were there we want pastures we want animals living in the wild we were you know fenced in but like living like an actual animal. not this crazy warehouse bullshit you guys are running. well that’s gonna up our operation cost well then that’s how it’s gonna be so then the beef becomes far more expensive. now the beef becomes far more expensive than what a fast food what are the restaurants do? well they’re gonna have to make things more expensive – so who’s gonna suffer? the poor people who’s gonna suffer with cheap meat in supermarkets? poor people that can’t afford it no but I think what happens

R: Joe is you start to put you have started to pull a thread that reveals the how the fabric of our culture is corrupted because it shouldn’t be more expensive the only reason it’s more expensive is because everything is put into a capital based ideology we’re already I’ve heard many times on the show you discuss in universal basic income this is that the beginning of looking at alternative economic models. and there’s an argument for saying everyone has the right to a nutritious deiet everyone has the right to a safe home you know so like you know if we start prioritizing those ideas above these organizations have the right to maximize profit on the sake then maximizing profit that’s getting taken off the table and then there comes your counter-argument about innovation well I would say if innovation slows no problem because we are we’ve decided as a culture to prioritize housing and nutrition for the majority of people. now you can say that starts – you know that’s that’s kind of socialism. but and I don’t think that that can work on us on a continental scale I think you have that we have to break down centralized systems whether those are corporate centralized systems or national. I feel that we the time is gone where there’s too much diversity like them not – they probably always was diversity people are different we were influenced by our culture’s our schools our education our class our races all these factors and then to expect us all to live in this sort of single bandwidth of this is what America is all this is what France is all this is what England is people are too different now but what you know if it does it seems like the standards we were adhering to unconsciously or otherwise is these groups have the right to make as much money as they can and to interfere with that is un-American or un-British or whatever it was you know beyond national ideas I’m sure so you know for me that’s the you pull that Fredo it’s the poor that will suffer well then no we have to rule out the poor suffer so we have so what happens in the end you start to get into redistribution of resources managing and regulating the power of the most powerful people and whenever that conversation start it gets shut down because we conserve

J: even in a capitalist system wouldn’t it be more ethical if everybody started from the same starting block well that’s what’s wrong with the world right what’s wrong with the world is some people are in a they have a terrible hand of cards they’ve been dealt. My point about food is that the people that are gonna sir they’re gonna suffer the most are the people that rely on the cheap food yes you’ll soon as that cheap thing gets pulled away then a lot of those supermarkets and a lot of those fast food stores that rely on that factory farm food you know they’re gonna be in a bad situation. things are gonna be much more expensive. and if things are much more if they make animals live like what is that guy’s name? Polyface farms Joel Salatin? He’s a fascinating cat I had him on my podcast before he’s sort of a farm reformist and what he believes is that these animals should live just like animals when he has pigs he puts them in a fenced area but he moves the fenced area every day so like the pigs move to a different spot. and so they’re just constantly foraging and eating acorns and but they’re you know they’re living like a pig. they’re living in a naturally they’re not living in some crazy warehouse yes it does same with his chickens he has this mobile chicken coop but he moves it from pasture to pasture and this is how he operates his entire farm

R: yes it seems again the point that’s been we’ve talked about earlier that we ought to like if we look at no one knows what’s right. so perhaps what we could try and do is replicate what we do naturally. and so there is an argument that naturally we do hunt there is an argument that naturally we do eat meat there is an absolutely Grob food to them right it’s an argument that it’s always saying like getting into organic gardening if you have your own garden man I mean that is like one of those Karma free things ever if you can figure out a way to have your own compost your own garden and you don’t ever have to rely on anybody else for your food, well then you’re not participating in that shit at all

R: do you think that the spirit of entrepreneurship could be turned to designing these systems do you think the only thing that incentivizes people is maximum profit I I do too I think that is possible that people would sit around go how do we organize a society that’s fairer and just that doesn’t kill people’s individualism or creativity or right to pursue different goals or to be who they are and believe who you know but like I feel like there’s so much fog in the air people don’t know what they actually believe in because there’s so much powerful cultural influence. so much toxin physical toxin literal toxins and toxicity cultural toxicity! you know how are how am I to protect my children from cultural influences that tillens you have to look this way be this way behave that way these are the things that call if you’re not this you’re not a man if you’re not this you’re not a woman you know like what like you know as a parent I feel the obligation to create an environment where they can grow up to be who they are in inverted commas and then when you sort of scaled it up to a society you know how can we start to recognize look is this time to look at different systems for living and I what I feel is people want to be involved in their in the power systems that affect them like if you have a group of a hundred people they want a bit better to run their own schools around their own care systems from being charter their own life not just be some little beam of energy flicked about by cultural forces that they can’t reach or touch it’s alienatig n and like one of the things in Marxism and that you know very little about this subject is he says that when capitalism reaches a certain point people will be lost alienated they’ll feel like a cog in a machine no one will have no pride in their work no will know what it’s like to make a whole bicycle and think look I made that you’re just you’re the guy that makes the pedals now fuck off home you know now like you know like I’ve listened to enough Jordan Peterson to understand that there are limitations to what socialism and Marxism can achieve but just because you know capitalism is better than feudalism that doesn’t mean that’s the end of the conversation that we shouldn’t be looking for fairer better more just ways of living

J: well yeah I don’t know of capitalism as the problems but maybe it’s how people engage with capitalism maybe it’s what people choose to focus on. if you’re just about acquiring wealth and money some people are yeah they’re gonna be very deeply unhappy. it’s gonna be this weird game of acquiring influence and power too you just have this insurmountable mound of money that you live on top of. I don’t think that’s a good way for them either. I think if we’re gonna really we’re going to look at this country fairly we have to look at think of all the poor neighborhoods and imagine being born in those poor neighborhoods and imagine being born in a place where there’s no resources, there’s no hell you’re living in the fucking mountains of West Virginia those coal mining communities, or people it’s all just mobile homes and pills and it’s chaos and but just extreme poverty. what do you do if you’re stuck in that? what have you if you’re born into that clan ?that’s the group you’re born into you’re fucked man you’re fucked. we have to take our resources and concentrate on parts of America the same way we concentrate on many other problem spots in the world and look at them as like hey man there’s a spot where people are fucked and we should unfuck them we should figure out a way to go into every single horrible community in this country on this planet ones that are just as bad as something that you see in third-world countries they exist right here in America fix that. don’t ignore that. that’s crazy! though if they’re in Detroit if they’re in wherever the fuck they are whatever whatever the horrible community is why isn’t there a concerted national effort to eliminate that that’s a major source of crime it’s a major source of people feel like they got fucked over in life so they want to get at you and take from you because you got that easy road hey man you’re born in the fucking suburbs hey man your mom and dad are still together you know hey man your dad has a job and your mom’s at home baking it shit you live like a motherfucking Norman Rockwell movie fuck you man! my mom’s on crack my mom’s a prostitute my life is hell my dad beats me I’ve been sexually molested since I was a little kid! this is the reality that people exist and they don’t feel like anybody’s coming to help them! we need to concentrate on that the government if the government really cares about us if they’re really involved in social engineering and making America better again make those places better. those are the places you need to concentrate on not tax breaks for fucking super-rich corporations that get you in place then they make enough money man that’s not the problem the money is where where the money goes what’s it being allocated towards the biggest problem in our country is he’s in impossible to escape communities. yes that so many people just get sucked into this trap and for every person that gets out and becomes a basketball player or a successful business person and they have this story about the poverty that they grew up and they they are so rare yes and then it’s not to be applauded that they got through that it is but it’s more to be we should understand like hey I’ve got a real fucking problem that we’re churning out all these people that live with what they start out in life with a massive deficit start out in life emotionally fuck physically abused. they start out with everybody around them – loser everybody’s going to jail. everybody is constantly doing pills or this or that they’re it’s all negative. and to do to ask them to develop their own positive mindset uniquely in a vacuum it’s preposterous yes oh I’ll just pull them up by your bootstraps. all those assholes hey you got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps like they don’t even have boots man you don’t understand like you don’t know what you’re talking about you’ve never seen it you’ve never been involved in that kind of poverty he’s not fair it’s not fair it on if we care about people that’s we should fucking care about yes I couldn’t agree more no problem and it’s everywhere in the world all the Paul the crime and poverty will imagine if everyone the lowest you could live is like a middle class existence. boy everybody would all be a lot more fucking relaxed! if you always had meals you always had food you always had a roof over your head everyone lives middle-class holy shit! I mean obviously that’s way past the expectations that we have right now for the world because like 34 thousand dollars a year globally puts you in the world 1% you know I mean that’s the what make $34,000 a year which is hard to live on man. yes you you’re in the 1% of the world

R: but that standard that you very eloquently described is I think achievable yeah what be the aim and when you give just one example of how legislate the bias legislation is continually to support the powerful while making the just making nominal gestures to poverty we’re putting in yeah yeah and like so if there is a point to nation if there is a point to a flag and our belief and this idea that there is an America and there is a Britain and we’re all together we’re all one and we’ve got a common destiny in a common past, then if we’re not if we’re ignoring and neglect in those communities then I say that is what defines us. you know and until there are system,s codes, regulations that prioritize that we will continue to live in something heading to what if not a dystopia something moving in the direction of dystopia where their priorities and dreams are sort of owned really by the kind of bit mad evil insect robot images that Wilson discussed that

J: people do get very concerned when someone reaches a point of excessive power and influence like a Jeff Bezos type character. when you see some guy who’s not he doesn’t have a million dollars like oh wow guys got a million dollars like he must be so relaxed! that’s so much money. now he’s got a hundred and fifty billion and he works every day maniacally. He’s constantly doing new projects and new things and buying out Whole Foods and that’s like pinnacle capitalism it’s one of the things that scares people the most when someone just acquires just insane position of power and wealth. like like a Bill Gates type character who is very altruistic very very generous Bill Gates’s he’s are one of the better examples of someone who gains a lot of money and then does a lot to help people especially in his retirement all they do is focus on charitable organizations and

R: yeah which is brilliant I mean a marvelous and you know I’m not criticizing the great achievement of brilliant people but it like it really for me that demonstrates the limit that the limitations come from the type of system as we live in that you can’t through charity affect every impoverished community in America. you know like we the systems that we have are oh well if you’re poor like that you know the bootstrap model well this guy did it look at this great I overcame the odds? you know until like I feel like in a sense charities become kind of valve that allows you know people like you and I who aren’t poor to feel like well I do a bit you know I’m sort of involved I can wash my hands of it. Unless we there’s no reason no America there is no England unless we have integral relationships with one another we support one another

J: if we really are on a team when we see someone who’s completely downtrodden who’s on our team and we ignored them well that’s not much of a fucking team is it? no I mean that’s what I feel like when I come to red lights and I see homeless people I feel terrible. I’m like I feel like you know I mean there’s part of you is like don’t give them any money because they know they’re gonna just buy drugs you know let them figure it out! but then they’re not gonna figure it out they have mental health issues. and they’re and they’re supposedly on the team they probably born in America they probably have national citizenship here you know they this is our team and no one gives a fuck they’re camped out under the bridge. it’s like the the diffusion of responsibility that comes with these massive numbers 20 million in LA 300 and plus whatever it is now was like 320 in America

R: yeah it’s unbelievable I think there’s 90,000 in there general California like a cities worth of homeless people isn’t it it’s not difficult for me to envisage that when we talk about the transcendent states that can be achieved through meditation and psychedelics meaning that beings like us can access them. it’s not difficult to envisage human like a type of creature a type of being a little more evolved than us that would look back and say “oh my god they allowed homelessness they allowed those impoverished communities” or why was it oxide this belief in competitive systems and survival of the fittest that were resourced from ideas that weren’t really meant to be translated into that when you were talking before about like the natural world is fraught with competition and fret of course is that he’s animal so you know I’m not disputing what you’re saying there but we can’t transpose that into an economic system survival of the fittest if you ain’t got enough hustle and muscle fuck you you’re you’re down by the wayside you know here we have an obligation to aspire to the better parts of our nature not to continually use materialism and rationalism to justify that 20% of the population you know whatever vicinity is a just garbage are just waste and they’re that’s affordable we can a court we can live with that. is it for me it’s that why would we one we have the knowledge that oh yeah we shouldn’t be farming in that way oh we shouldn’t have social systems all of the answers always the same. If you were to change in that area it will affect the interest of the powerful it will affect impede the ability of certain organizations to make profit. now I’m near I’m not talking about here I don’t know the lexicon enough around socialism and capitalism and Marxism various forms of social organization I’m just talking about my assumption that we’re all resourced from the same basic material and phenomena. we all have compassion and love in us and if we on an individual level can achieve some level of access to that, then we can start to organize ourselves on that basis not on the basis of well what’s the most I can get an individual it’s rational for me to I’m not involved in that that doesn’t affect me personally. you know and I think it’s a hard thing for us to hold I think the reason we all do just live with homelessness and the only decision we make is do we put a couple of dollars out the window with the light or not then like it’s hard to hold that it’s hard there’s a lot more than 100 people

J: there’s no fix like there’s no that’s an individual but not as not one person and even collectively as a group when you have mental health issues unless you want to institutionalize those people yeah but then who here’s the thing. If everyone has a unique and if everyone has their own ideas about what to do with their life and everyone has freedom what if you just don’t have enough people that are interested in in mental health of the homeless people? you just don’t have enough.

R: there’s no resources guarantee results yeah that’s a big question because our systems are biased in a particular directions money whether they have government funding do you think that they could cure homelessness one of the advantages I’ve got of being a drug addict is it means I have to help up a drug addicts as part of my own recovery this puts me into areas institutions groups facilities where I’m meeting drug addicts and always what you’ll find the people that were there is always someone like a man or woman most often in my personal experience is a woman some matriarchal woman full of mother energy that just will do this shit forever for free for nothing that just loves it let’s just put herself like my grandmother did or my mother did or like these women do between people and the gutter. they’re just wind say I’ll be the person I’ll be the person in LA at friendly house it was a woman called Peggy Albrecht it used to run a play a friendly house was over for women that have got drug and addiction and abuse issues. and like this woman she was from Chicago she was 90 years old by the time like I met him so rude and brilliant and beautiful and entirely willing to dedicate herself. and I think every community everywhere everyone knows people like that. and I feel like the same way as like if it is someone that has got a great capacity to play basketball or be a comic like I think that when you spot those people that you encourage them talented people yeah the talent of compassion and you know but we don’t value that unless it’s like unless it could be turned to a profit fuck off all of those organizations like those organizations that help people with addiction issues you know they are maligned. and like the people that profit from the opioid crisis they are supported they are able to conceal as john oliver brilliantly revealed or they’re able to conceal their practices. continually the the invisible bias is in the direction of profit and like the failure of certain types of socialism doesn’t mean that’s the end of the argument. i think we have an obligation to look for ways of accessing our own higher nature better nature kinder nature, call it what you will—and seeing how we can organize that as an individual you can do so much even if Bill Gates can you know fucking no cure malaria and make the significant charitable day no these impressive powerful people can’t make a meaningful difference then clearly this is a systemic problem

J: well there’s also the problem with homeless people and that they’re adults when you become an adult. and you develop from the time your child it’s probably very likely that the damage was all done while they were young. they’re probably abused and neglected and there’s a lot of issues that led them to either have mental health problems or they had mental health problems already maybe they have genetic problems then on top of that there’s drug abuse. For each one of those people to get well you’re gonna need a massive amount of folks you’re not gonna have one old lady who’s rude people who would be the woman I woul like the one that was out of golden girls Estelle Getty she’s been available Oh God Betty white still hanging in there yeah well would you book a movie around her stay

R: how are we gonna fund this? yeah it’s um there’s limitations to the individual but there’s

J: not like crash this optimism in the crib now Joe because I’m joshing the optimism but I’m saying the logistics of it would almost be insurmountable and it’s very is not an objective thing it’s this thing that’s been biased over time sort of once a person is developed once there are a human it’s very difficult to turn that train around. yeah if we can save the community and save the future like help like less people get through fucked help let help more people get through with hope and with a real possibility for improving their life versus have this sense of hopelessness that many are confronted with that’s gonna make less crime I agree that’s like that’s just if someone looked at it from a social engineering standpoint it almost seems like they will the only way that would ever have to happen would be there’s be some fucking catastrophe that forced people to act. we sometimes need something that’s shoved in our face to force us to act but if someone brilliantly calculated the amount of resources that it would require and then also brilliantly calculated how much less crime we would have how much less how many more innovations because people didn’t waste their lives in fact they got through life and used one of the most valuable resources we have which is the human imagination and creativity and ingenuity like and we’re missing that on these people that are growing up in these horrible environments where they can’t escape. they’re so fucked from they’re in gangs they’re you know the crime and poverty and violence. they’re so fucked that whatever genius they have is wasted on this nonsensical existence. if they could just show that and quantify how much that would be how valuable that would be to the overall culture and community of the cause of the continent and ultimately of the earth. you would have a reason to engineer and think about this

R: yeah it’s a beautiful that is really beautiful and it’s interesting that the way that I agree with you that it’s almost has to at some point be translated into monetary value because otherwise people don’t seem to read it

J: yeah and safety for everybody for them who live in these horrible communities wouldn’t be great again if everybody lived like a middle-class person the idea that that’s impossible seems so insane it’s almost seems like well then nobody should live like that then like either everybody should be able to live like that or nobody should be like that was like that’s what everybody really wants right you want to be comfortable like in terms of like your ability to exist. and then all the things you’re doing that you struggle with should be a good percentage of them other than emotional and friendship type things should be of your own choosing you choose to take a difficult path. you should choose to take an adventure. you choose to try to enrich yourself with this difficult experience and the challenge of it and try to overcome that challenge. instead of you your challenge is not to get killed by a gang. you know your challenge does not get fucked by your uncle again. you know what I mean? I mean this is what people have to deal with and you’re you’re missing these brilliant minds they don’t get this chance to come through and and sneak through that fucking Salmon Ladder you know get up to the top!

R: this is very beautiful that you’re passionate about this and I think popularizing these ideas is important because I feel that then people will be familiar with this kind of language and will recognize that when there is political discourse how fatik and empty is that people will say you know like I think in the last election in your country it was clear that there was no one no one is saying that no one no one is standing on a political platform of do you know what everyone should basically be I live a middle-class lifestyle there’s no reason there’s enough resources we can do this we could organize society on that basis because that’s considered outlandish and you’re crazy. and we’re so there’s so much I can again you know with your imaginary listener that would consider this pontification you know there’s so much anger I can I feel that a lot o political events that have occurred in the last five years or the manifestation of a social rage of people that are pissed off with not being heard and a pissed off with a cultural conversation that didn’t include them and that they feel angry like I want to help other people fuck knows but you know that if that resource is becoming so nurtured and grown and I feel people would feel tremendous relief to let go of that. just to feel like listen it’s alright for you to be you could we be a little more aspirational? and a little and consider what our goals are consider what progress looks like to us is progress the terrifying robots or is progress considering elevate in the lowest among us to raise the standards

J: people could just understand that this this is not forever you don’t there is no such things forever this is a temporary thing you’ve got to try to eat as much good out of this as you can and to go against my point you know there’s a real problem with people being lazy. people are lazy there’s not an equality of effort the idea of equality of outcome like people want you know income equality well there’s no effort equality. that’s just the fact there’s people out there that are just they work harder they’re smarter they’re more focused they’re less distracted they’re more dedicated they have a better plan they’ve got it through better and they become more successful and the idea that they become more successful than you because somehow or another there’s some nefarious actions afoot well that that negates another possibility which is you’re a lazy cunt that’s a possibility yes and what do we do about those people? I tell you this I’ve got a plan for the lazy

R: lazy Island Pinocchio’s donkey laugh no arcade games though they’re too lazy I feel like I’m well I consider this that people that don’t have a lot of life force like yeah I feel that it’s a gift to be a person that’s got a lot of Drive to be a person that’s like I’m fucking going to achieve this shit you know like that some people are a little lethargic and don’t have a lot of energy I feel that’s a kind of despondency we could break that down in a thousand different ways is it poor diet is it poor role models is it poor social conditioning who are these lazy people weak genius could be weak Jews even weak genes okay then we’d like in the territory of disability so however you look at it? I think you end up at a point of compassion I think if you say I think we should start at the point of compassion. because now they’re all like what is tolerance if it isn’t the tolerance of people that w sort of can’t understand

J: as long as the carry their own weight we usually don’t have a problem with it but when they’re so lazy they just Juke the system and screw people over and figure their way to scam through life

R: yeah but I think those people don’t exist only at the bottom of the social ladder I think they exist at the top and the effect there is were so he’s all about the president in those two this is my country motherfucker you better be

R: found him to be delightful you know so very so sweet again like I say I don’t judge me there wasn’t I interviewed him about five years ago I was doing salsa for he was the pretty was okay let me near him on the wall like like he um yeah he was sort of sweep I remember thinking why I felt was why you don’t have no intellectual curiosity that’s what I felt well that’s why I felt I felt like I was sort of like him he was nice and his staff at that big Tower they all loved him. but maybe just curiosity and I don’t think he’s been very genuine with that great make America great again for you I don’t ladies where’s that everyone shall be middle class we’re gonna start reorganizing Society reaching out into Detroit and in a crushed mining towns in West Virginia where’s that other than wise you ain’t making America great again

J: that’s true that’s true but think about how we were talking about Dave Chappelle but one of the reasons why he’s so great other than the fact that he’s smart mmm just talented and all these good things is that he knows what he does and he does it. that’s his wheelhouse he stays in there trumps wheelhouse is making giant gold buildings with his name on it. and spray-tan he knows what the fuck to do and he knows how to make money. and he doesn’t give a fuck about all that other stuff cuz that other stuff is wasted energy for him his energy is in focusing on how you get more buildings with those giant gold Trump letters on it

R: no one can argue that it’s been a tremendous success lately one of those hotels the water bottle had his face on it you know mean he’s amazing incredible achievement drinking if you be inside of his face

J: but that’s his thing right it’s like why is it okay for your thing to be tennis and that’s all you know about I don’t even pay attention to the politics why is that okay but when we see a guy like him we have a problem with it because he’s his intellectual curiosity is only about money so it’s even grosser

R: I agree listen the show are to return to my point I wouldn’t waste time judging anyone as an individual because I imagine if I were to spend time examining Donald Trump’s past his relationship with his father the conditions he grew up in what we felt we had to do to be a good person I would imagine our Cokie of course but what I would query is the system that elevates the people like that and I you know the incredible power like and you know again I believe in it systems that need to change no individuals I think we’ve overly fetishized politics. I don’t live in this country so I don’t know if it’s much worse under Trump I’ve heard some things that sound really bad or then it was under Barack Obama but hat my general belief is you have indeed don’t fetishize individuals and get distracted to think about changing the system because you were not getting that middle class lifestyle for everyone naive no one’s offering that Bernie Sanders isn’t offering that no one’s offering about and unless someone’s offering that what’s the where while should we get involved

J: have you ever talked to economists about like what is the problem what’s the feel like people that are you know more socialistic minded they’d be more socialist minded I guess but but understanding of capitalism to the point where they could point out the flaws in allowing this infinite growth model where someone gets to a point like a Jeff Bezos or something like that what would they do to mitigate that? you’re not gonna put a cap. like let’s when people say that like you’re gonna pay 70% in taxes over ten million dollars I was like one of the ones that was banded about people just start laughing. like you’re out of your fucking mind! no one’s gonna do that. they’ll get to ten million dollars and then they’ll stop yeah it’s stupid it’s that’s I think a very limit in system and I feel that the problems are broader than that I think that they’re like did you ever sit like that

R: you know if you ever watch Steve Bannon talk that either man like you know someone I would again not politically agree with for what it’s worth but when he’s description of what happened in that economic crash of 2000 and I and the decisions that were made further you know American taxpayer to bail out the life financial industry and I’ve subsequently seen a documentary that said look this is why we had to do that these were the options but for me that is a demonstration of capitalism’s inherent failings and but we’re not talking about a system that is flawless and perfect it’s pretty fucking flawed aside from the human collateral damage and that you have again described that the communities they’re impoverished and without hope and living in poverty in a kind of slavery you know even in itself doesn’t work according to its own rules. as they are officially sustained and reboot it when it inevitably fails just hold

J: the pure sign of it is that the fact that no one went to jail for the subprime mortgage crisis yeah those guys didn’t go to jail all those guys that with the real financial I know so we’re looking at from a distance they were going. I see where this is going like this is gonna blow up and a lot of people gonna lose their houses. like you guys are assholes like yeah then there was a lot of people that engaged in those predatory loans and they didn’t get punished those those guys the craziest thing is a lot of them got bonuses! yes that’s right they got bonuses even if the bank got bailed out and they said the bonuses were part of their contracts and if they didn’t honor their contracts they’d have a hard time hiring these people and there would be chaos and they’ve just made it a reason why they had to give them millions of dollars in bonuses yeah when they failed let me get a bonus and you’ve failed? like your bank failed and you still get a bonus? like you knew about those predatory loans you knew about those you do about the subprime mortgage bullshit that was going down in your business? yeah you just let it ride and now you’re gonna get a you’re gonna get a bonus what’s the bonus for? yeah what would you have to do to be fine if that’s yeah that’s the bonus you’d be jailed yeah I mean just think about what they’re doing a Julian Assange right they’re throwing that guy in a jail somewhere that can look good that embassy moves no but I mean the fact that what he did was release information that everybody found very interesting and what they did is crash the whole fucking economy.

R: right he was able to write that embassy idea for as long as because it’s not actually in another country is it I went to visit him in there as a matter of fact just briefly popped in so anything’s gonna happen with him I think he’s gonna end up serving a pretty lumpy prison sentence somewhere is in April

J: I think they’re gonna get him on like what are they gonna charge him on they’re charging on like hacking charges or some shit now which they didn’t charge him on before right is that what’s

R: emerged and he’s going to be extradited this country is that true I don’t know well I mean again I suppose this is what happens if you challenge the interest of the powerful

J: if Trump was really if Trump really want to get people on the side he pardoned them

R: do you think that that would be popular because like someone like that Edward Snowden is it like look I’m yeah obviously I think don’t put the lives of people at risk that are in compromised military positions that seems like a fairly obvious thing but like I don’t think they did that but nice what

J: I understood was they got hacked and someone else released the documents without the names redacted yeah it seems to me where he leaks never did that it would it

R: Snowden it seems to qualify for a hero in pretty much any way you look at it into a twenty six-year-old person making that decision and

J: yeah very brilliant you know I’ve heard him I think he was on neil degrasse tyson’s podcast they talked to him Wow but

R: did you see in citizen four there’s a bit like in that film about Edward Snowden sits and for there’s a bit where he’s just come out and he’s talking to the journalists or filmmakers that are making the film it’s kind they can find watching with this phone you can’t leave that like every he’s like in the sort of a state of mad enlightenment where he’s just seen the truth of they’re listening to us now you can’t fucking have that on you like this it’s terrifying to watch on them because you know obviously now he’s calmed down he’s dealt with the understands that you know but he was like a person that was emerging from having seen the other side of the matrix yeah I mean he was deep into it and then when he revealed all the information they had a fucking they were had a manhunt for him the guy had a hideout in Russia he had a seek asylum in our enemy yes the whole thing is so strange yes so who do our power structures actually support if someone tells the truth to the population they have to flee to Russia if someone talks about improper agricultural practices that’s against the law they can be in prison they starts to reveal that the state itself the very thing that we Revere the very thing that we identify is the tool of our oppression

J: who want to discourage people from leaking information that makes them look horrible it’s that simple yes it’s that simple if you look at what information he leaked and what what it did well you know what he did was revealed things that everyone wanted to know about yet we felt were crimes

R: it makes me feel that it’s as simple as if you knew what we do in order to keep shit you would revolt so we are never gonna let you know well that for me in a sense is a path the stuffing will hold on fucking me hell are you

J: I thought you are elected officials you’re one of us but no you’re above us to the point where someone leaks information about your crimes they get locked in this embassy for seven years like what is their crime exactly in comparison of the crimes that he’s revealed yes like that’s where it’s crazy did the when you look at the the balance the imbalance between what his crime is and the crimes that he’s revealed I mean he’s revealed some staggering crimes. and no one’s concentrating on that the government is not freaking out we’ve got a we’ve left some obviously uh we have work to do we have corrections to make there’s none of that talk there’s get that guy talk

R: yeah that’s right and like it’s so under the veil of patriotism a lot can be concealed and and that is a incident that passes through several administrations so like you mean there for seven years yes it makes you people what is the what are the differences? you know like I kinda you know sort of I been on Bill Maher show I like Bill Maher I’m I’m you know very sympathetic to left you know I’m Alton Utley beyond left left-wing I’m you know trying to my belief is that we should trying to organize a system based on a hallucinogenic experience for fuck’s sake! there’s there’s no party for me. and I’m not even allowed to fucking Hallucigenia and it’s safe to say but like I feel that so many of the problems that we’re experiencing now is because the the Democratic left-wing liberal organizations stopped serving the people they were in the case of the British Labour Party designed set up to serve they neglected them they abandoned them you know they’re white weight or the white working-class in Britain were 50 60 years ago told hey there’s this thing called Britain we want you to go out there and fight and die for it give up your sons get out there and now they’re told hey there’s no such thing is Britain and like yeah no wonder people are confused! no wonder people are baffled! no wonder there are abandoned constituencies and despair and rage and I I feel the in a way it’s like what is patriotism resourced from a sense that we all need to belong that we want to be together you know that we’re willing to believe in a fictional idea a flag and a story about the you know the origin of a nation whether that’s an old one like mine or a new one like this one you know we’re willing to participate in that but if those values aren’t real if they aren’t like if it is we are gonna support the most powerful we will lie to you whenever necessary when our lies are revealed will imprison punish and lie about those people we don’t care about the most vulnerable what the fuck is the flag that we’re waving? who is it for?

J: it’s a good point and on that note let’s wrap this bitch up good we went out high we went that was a good one was a good way to end it Russell you’re awesome man I love you each other every day you always like being around you and your book mentors it’s out now your podcast would be available on luminary starting 25 23rd of this month so just a few days ladies gentlemen that’s the end of the show [Music]

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